Time Nick Message 10:17 ltuyen Hello. 10:23 ltuyen Is Luanti absolutely politics-free unlike Minecraft? 10:25 ireallyhateirc ltuyen, can't say for the core devs but Luanti is free software meaning you don't have to agree politically with the devs to use it 10:25 ireallyhateirc but there's probably ToS for services such as Luanti's ContentDB, server announcement, forums, tec. 10:25 ireallyhateirc etc.* 10:27 ireallyhateirc but since it is FOSS you can host your own counterparts if you don't like the ToS 10:28 MTDiscord well... to more simply answer the question: no 10:30 [MatrxMT] nothing is politics-free 10:31 [MatrxMT] as ireallyhateirc said though, it's free software, and so it ContentDB and the serverlist and minetestmapper and so on. So you just do with it as you please 10:35 [MatrxMT] that part IS separable from the forums, website, github, IRC, MAtrix discord, mastodon, et cetera in a way that's impossible with proprietary Minecraft 11:39 Ingar Luanti doesnt revoke your access if you're not using an MS account 12:09 ltuyen Didn't know that Mojang added weird controversial political splash text into children's game Minecraft in 2020 12:53 SwissalpS /4/4 13:08 sfan5 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GqrRt-6W8AAcwRl?format=jpg&name=large is this considered controversial these days? 13:09 [MatrxMT] in the parts of the USA that are very anti-CRT, yes 13:10 sfan5 no idea what CRT is but not being racist is just basic decency 13:10 MTDiscord Listen, at this point if I fart too hard and someone is outside and hears it, I might be considered controversial 13:11 [MatrxMT] I don't see a future for this conversation, really I don't think the premise is good 13:12 [MatrxMT] ltuyen leads with an innocent-sounding question but it quickly devolves into bickering and rhetoric after a question like that 13:12 MTDiscord Racism in any form for anyone against anyone is bad 13:13 [MatrxMT] well yes, I'd like to affirm that 13:14 [MatrxMT] but people usually use even that above statement as a wedge to try to open up debates about what should and shouldn't be done to combat racism and how some other boogeyman is wrong 13:18 MTDiscord let's just end on this note: luanti as a software is relatively apolitical because it's supposed to be an engine / platform, it doesn't really have an identity. (well you could argue that some of the usual open source values are political, but eh.) 13:19 [MatrxMT] that's a pretty good note. We don't have a nonprofit, we don't campaign stuff. That's the answer, and close it 13:25 sfan5 (btw the user left an hour ago) 13:26 MTDiscord https://tenor.com/view/jinx-the-cat-jinx-jinx-cat-cat-computer-gif-25786466 13:26 [MatrxMT] How good is digtron though? 13:27 MTDiscord I didn't even realize there was a conversation before that lmao 13:31 MTDiscord mfw one grillion chat platforms 13:32 [MatrxMT] the chat platforms we have aren't good enough, let's add XMPP 13:32 MTDiscord Oh man 13:32 MTDiscord Hook the discord bot into the irc, then have an irc bot hooked into discord, and watch as it explodes 13:33 [MatrxMT] discord will get banned for flooding first, then IRC should be okay 14:40 bgstack15 I absolutely love that all the web-based components of Luanti are FLOSS! I run my own internal (slightly modified) luanti serverlist project. 14:42 bgstack15 The modifications basically remove security so there's no good reason to upstream the changes, but I wonder if they could inspire anybody. I accept "hostname$30020" as the server_url because all my servers run in docker on the default (internal inside docker) 30000, but my docker host has to listen on 30020 for example. 14:42 sfan5 that sounds like the engine should rather handle port mapping in some way 15:26 bgstack15 sfan5: Luanti game engine you mean? Help me understand. The game itself running inside docker might never know what the outside listening port is. Also, even just a port forwarding on a home router might be different than what the PC running the game might be using. 15:28 sfan5 the simplest solution I can think of is if you were able to tell Luanti "please act as if you were listening on port 12345 towards the server list" 15:31 bgstack15 So a different entry in the config file? That could work. I suppose I was exploiting the server_url in the same way, but on the serverlist side of things. 15:33 sfan5 yea 15:33 sfan5 something like "outside_port" 16:22 MTDiscord what kind of good 16:53 jonadab sfan5: anti-racism is not universally viewed as being the opposite of racism. A lot of people think it is a *form* of racism. 16:53 [MatrxMT] jonadab pls 16:54 MTDiscord https://tenor.com/view/wrong-way-entrance-car-gif-14278076 16:54 jonadab Although the wording "educate your friends on" doesn't really specify exactly which view you're supposed to promote, so whatever. 16:54 [MatrxMT] while I appreciate you want to give your 2c and maybe inform some people, I still it's bad territory 16:54 jonadab Fair enough. 16:54 MTDiscord yes, if you mean the antiracism which is just racism that challenges normal racism with different racism 16:55 jonadab I should probably, in general, get in the habit of reading all of the backscroll before replying to any of it. 16:55 [MatrxMT] the internet would be a much cleaner place if people would read a bit of context 17:01 jonadab The question of whether voxel-based games are still "children's games" in 2025, is another matter. 17:02 MTDiscord i think if they weren't roblox wouldn't be stonking or something 17:02 MTDiscord well, they are also "children's games" to be precise; not exclusive to children of course 17:03 [MatrxMT] it's Micro$oft's policy that MC is for kids, particularly their predatory marketplace and minecoin system and all the media and merch that funnels into it 17:03 jonadab Hmm, I wasn't thinking of roblox. That one does feel way more juvenile. 17:03 MTDiscord It's a race to the bottom 17:04 jonadab Oh, Bedrock edition, I always forget that exists. 17:04 MTDiscord At some point they just switched from rally cars to dragsters 17:04 [MatrxMT] but voxel terrain is established for many games nowadays, a lot of them not aimed at kids 17:05 [MatrxMT] like rising world 17:06 MTDiscord Play vintage story and you will know pain 17:06 jonadab I'm pretty sure the median viewer of Minecraft-related content on YouTube, for example, is middle-aged at this point. 17:07 jonadab Oh, if I want pain, I'll just go back to trying to get gud at Angband. 17:07 MTDiscord I see you've never played vintage story and I will respect your current opinion 17:12 jonadab This is honestly the first I've heard of it; and I am not one of those people who flits from game to game to game, so my threshhold for what makes a game worth my time to check out, tends to be a bit more elevated than "this one guy on IRC likes it". 17:12 bgstack15 sfan5: I don't expect that I would be able to understand how to code a change to the engine to include a new config option, so I doubt I could contribute a PR. And frankly, even if the engine provided one, the way serverlist is written, it uses the incoming IP address from the request as a validator, so any engine-side changes would need to be in coordination with the serverlist to trust a new config field coming from the client (game se 17:12 bgstack15 rver) anyways. 17:15 jonadab I mean, it's reasonable to trust that the game server knows what port it listens on. 17:17 jonadab At least as reasonable as assuming that the server doesn't have a mod that causes all connected clients to expend resources mining cryptocurrency for the server operator, for example. (Though that would likely degrade performance so much, that such a server would not have many users for very long.) 17:18 [MatrxMT] not if you tune it down to a slow mining rate ;) 17:21 MTDiscord the possibility that a client could be made to "mine crypto" was often considered an antifeature; but given recent developments (aggressive llm crawlers bogging down small websites) proof of work has become a legitimate feature (anubis). 17:21 MTDiscord it's the economy, stupid 17:24 MTDiscord Client has to turn off all mod protection, there's no sscsm so you'd have to manually install a csm, but first you have to enable csm. Then the csm would have to start an executable stored in it in a folder. But then you'd have to ship 3 operating system executables and detect which OS it is. If this miner has dynamic libraries it depends on that means you have a csm that's megabytes if not hundreds of megabytes. And if you want to 17:24 MTDiscord support freebsd then have a good cry. Then on top of this the csm might want to shut down the background process of the miner. But if the game crashes or -9 on linux then it will just continue to run which is going to be extremely suspicious. And on top of that even if there was sscsm you'd still have to trick the people to download the executable. Or you're going to have to figure out a way to payload an executable as a png 17:25 MTDiscord Just an absolute disaster 17:28 MTDiscord The more I think about this the more I'm starting to laugh thinking about how much effort someone would have to go through to run this payload lmao 17:29 [MatrxMT] so what you're saying is, SSCSM is a bad idea :D 17:29 zleap why would people want to, I am sure there are easier ways to mine crypto 17:30 [MatrxMT] that costs hardware. Why not let other people's hardware do the work? 17:30 zleap without their permission or consent 17:30 [MatrxMT] well I didn't say it wasn't unethical 17:30 zleap i know 17:39 MTDiscord No. Even with SSCSM you still have to disable things to run this payload 17:40 [MatrxMT] can you not mine it with pure Lua? 17:40 MTDiscord Lua would still be sandboxed so you'd have to go out of your way to turn off switches, if, they would even be allowed to be turned off 17:41 [MatrxMT] I assume it could send data to the server about what it's hashed and the server send it hashing jobs through same modchannel. Would still get an awful hashrate though 17:42 MTDiscord I don't see a lua miner anywhere, but I haven't looked that hard 17:43 MTDiscord It might be possible. But if mining with a raw C or C++ library on the CPU barely did anything a few years ago, I can't imagine how poorly that would perform today 17:44 MTDiscord You'd have to be able to turn off SSCSM safety and then get a C library loaded in. So you'd have to write a miner from scratch or you'd have to have a header only miner and payload it through the luajit C library 17:44 MTDiscord This just sounds like an awful plan lmao 17:44 MTDiscord unsandboxed sscsm would be fire xD 17:45 MTDiscord It would be, a dumpster fire 17:45 [MatrxMT] "I ran 999 SSCSM viruses on my Luanti" video 17:45 [MatrxMT] could you get it to mine a shitcoin like doge though? 17:46 MTDiscord Uhh, that's not header only at all. Oh man. That would be all this https://github.com/dogecoinfoundation/libdogecoin/tree/0.1.5-dev/src in a lua file 17:47 [MatrxMT] oh lol I had no idea it was that byzantine 17:47 MTDiscord I will say the actual worst case for sscsm 17:48 MTDiscord You are allowed to turn off sscsm sandboxing, so now it's like going on a website in the early 2000s, they can run anything they want. No AJAX protection, nothing. You can now do whatever you want through the server on a client's computer 17:48 MTDiscord Very shrimple solution, completely disable disabling that 17:50 MTDiscord Basically, do what is done now. Gut the luajit vm of anything that can escape 17:50 MTDiscord "oh man no no I can run proprietary software licenses on my pc oh noooo" 17:51 MTDiscord Do what emacs does when you load up a shared library, enforce the mod to agree that it's an open source license 17:52 [MatrxMT] hmm what's the free-est way to play Luanti? x86 or ARM? Then GNU/Linux-libre with no binary blobs on an FSF-approved distro 17:52 [MatrxMT] whatever is the openest architecture with the most free UEFI/BIOS/firmware 17:53 MTDiscord Freest way it's just to compile it yourself 17:53 MTDiscord RISC running alpine linux and compile from source 17:54 MTDiscord RISC still has a lot of proprietary bits though, if I remember there's a couple extensions that are really good but not technically open source 17:54 MTDiscord Which one? RISC-V or RISC64? 17:54 MTDiscord Also I wouldn't go Alpine, nixos gives you better reproducibility and stability and still allows you to compile from Source if you like 17:55 [MatrxMT] make sure the display connection can't be used for content protection either 17:55 MTDiscord vga 17:55 MTDiscord RISC-V last I heard, they made decent progress but things like GPU manufacturers can always close source parts of it and then release those bits, turns out if you pay an engineer they do better work... and those GPU you manufacturers did work 17:55 MTDiscord do everything yourself 17:55 [MatrxMT] I think you can do it with DVI-D 17:56 zleap would https://openrisc.io/ be applicable here? 17:56 MTDiscord from the machine to the software 17:56 MTDiscord Replies don't work over IRC 17:56 MTDiscord Well that was a trick question because they're the same. RISC-V has many implementations 17:56 [MatrxMT] do it on a breadboard PC pfft 17:56 MTDiscord they're on matrix? 17:56 MTDiscord Potato tomato same thing 17:56 [MatrxMT] discord replies do not make it to IRC, and IRC messages are what get sent to matrix 17:57 MTDiscord oof 17:57 MTDiscord Oh dang 17:57 [MatrxMT] well just chat like it's an IRC room 17:57 MTDiscord anyway, I said "do everything yourself, from the machine to the software" responding to "what's the freeest way to....." 17:57 MTDiscord Or they could just join IRC, but I'm a hypocrite so what do I know 17:57 MTDiscord (that's a lot of es) 17:58 zleap i seem to be on both irc and matrix 17:58 zleap but only for a few channels, I am on a lot more channels on irc 17:58 MTDiscord Manually do boolean algebra in a notepad to run minetest 17:59 MTDiscord Technically the freest way, is to develop a proprietary solution patent and copyright it, and then extend that copyright freely to everyone, ensuring that everyone will always have access to it... (coughs in gpl) 17:59 MTDiscord Or so I've heard 17:59 [MatrxMT] you have to make the notepad yourself to make sure it wasn't produced with any nonfree software at the paper mill / printworks 18:00 [MatrxMT] if you're lucky there's some paperbark trees nearby 18:00 MTDiscord Precisely, make the saw from the iron you find in the ground so that no licenses restrict you from what you can do with the saw 18:01 MTDiscord land: 18:01 [MatrxMT] actually we're all doomed because our parents used nonfree software 18:01 MTDiscord Okay fine. Step 1: move to a deserted island 18:01 MTDiscord every single time I think of re-enacting the development of civilization, I run into the same problem: all the land's owned 18:02 [MatrxMT] there's always bir tawil 18:02 MTDiscord move? by what means? 18:02 MTDiscord You're going to have to take off your proprietary shoes and then swim there 18:03 MTDiscord while breathing air (mildly) polluted with pollutants made with proprietary stuff 18:03 [MatrxMT] there are proprietary microplastics in my body already 18:04 MTDiscord You'll have to wear a face mask made of your own hair and go get a coconut and perform a blood filtration on yourself 18:05 ireallyhateirc what is this drunk conversation 18:06 MTDiscord Well, we were basically seeing how to unproprietary everything 18:06 MTDiscord The results are inconclusive 18:07 ireallyhateirc proprietary software/hardware is especially insidious because computers are universal machines and can be programmed to do a wide array of bad stuff 18:07 ireallyhateirc other things such as shoes are less likely to do so 18:07 MTDiscord How can you be sure? Where is the source code? 18:08 MTDiscord N/A 18:09 ireallyhateirc sounds like trolling but I'll reply as if it wasn't trolling. Shoes won't spy on you and won't stop you from going to different places 18:09 ireallyhateirc proprietary code will spy on you and will prevent you from doing stuff 18:09 ireallyhateirc the worst thing that could happen with shoes would be if they were filled with poison or radioactive substances, which is dumb 18:10 ireallyhateirc in practice manufacturers of physical goods such as shoes use planned obsolescence 18:10 MTDiscord https://baliston.com/products/baliston%C2%AE-by-starck-smart-shoes-full-black 18:10 MTDiscord There's AI in shoes now 18:11 ireallyhateirc if you're dumb enough to buy shoes with AI then you get a dump prize 18:12 ireallyhateirc dumb* 18:18 zleap AI seems to be creaping in everywhere, more of a marketing con to get you to buy stuff 18:18 zleap and I think there is debate as to how intelligent it is, 18:18 [MatrxMT] I must be too cynical, because it puts me off the product instead of hyping me 18:18 zleap same here 18:19 zleap Machine learning may be different ans has good applications for say medical scans 18:19 zleap looking for specific things in a scan to assist human doctors 18:20 zleap *ans = and 18:56 mrkubax10 Is it possible to remove node without callbacks getting called without using VoxelManip? 18:59 Krock mrkubax10: use swap_node and remove its metadata manually using :from_table({}) 19:00 mrkubax10 oh right, I wouldn't come up with that lol 19:00 Krock :) 19:00 sfan5 https://github.com/luanti-org/minetest_game/blob/838ad60ad085f7eabdfb60a8e531b14e424aa5d4/mods/beds/api.lua#L1-L7 for your convenience 19:01 mrkubax10 thanks 19:39 bgstack15 Anybody here use mod "sickles"? It's pretty sick. 19:40 MTDiscord It's pretty sickles. 19:42 bgstack15 I had to adapt it for Mineclonia, and it makes my giant wheat field so much easier to manage. 19:46 mrkubax10 finally managed to implement cable melting when "voltage" is too high in IndustrialTest 19:46 Krock it's less sick, or should I say sickless 19:47 Krock mrkubax10: melting cables should depend on current and not voltage 19:47 mrkubax10 hence I put volage in quotes 19:47 Krock unless it's voltage drop across the conductor 19:48 Krock hmm so it's similar to technic? 19:48 mrkubax10 kind of, yeah 19:48 mrkubax10 closer to original IC2 19:48 Krock what is IC2? 19:48 mrkubax10 IndustrialCraft 2 19:49 Krock ah. some sort of Minecraft mod 19:49 mrkubax10 yeah 19:49 mrkubax10 I would say that IC2 is where all of those Technic-like mods started 20:39 sfan5 https://0x0.st/8y4H.png a piece of sky fell down