Time Nick Message 09:56 [MatrxMT] we have a report on the forums that the server list is being abused with bad usernames and probably spoofed client numbers https://forum.luanti.org/viewtopic.php?p=446383#p446383 09:59 [MatrxMT] a username blacklist should solve this, but only temporarily 10:00 [MatrxMT] we have had serverlist abuse before. Thankfully we are small enough that it doesn't happen often 10:00 [MatrxMT] if Luanti were big enough the serverlist would have to change a lot or go extinct 10:01 [MatrxMT] please don't 10:01 sfan5 i don't see how the list can effectively prevent bad usernames appearing on genuine servers 10:01 sfan5 (preventing bad or fake servers is much easier) 10:01 [MatrxMT] i think what blockhead said was more about servers with inappropiate names 10:02 [MatrxMT] I'd like Luanti to have a much bigger community (as it is community-centered game, it is up to community to create games/mods/etc content and servers) but I don't want it to be flooded with hackers and trolls 10:02 [MatrxMT] +1 10:03 [MatrxMT] also luanti being bigger would also come with othe baggage 10:03 [MatrxMT] such as pay to win servers 10:03 [MatrxMT] other* 10:03 [MatrxMT] I really love it, it gives me those warm feelings that minecraft did, but with much bigger taste of freedom which I really enjoy 10:03 [MatrxMT] scunthorpe problem at the scale of the serverlist... no thanks 10:04 [MatrxMT] Just looked up "scunthorpe problem" and it is hillarious 10:04 [MatrxMT] Can't like a well-trained small AI model help with it? 10:04 [MatrxMT] instead of dumb soulless regexp filters 10:06 [MatrxMT] what about the false positives 10:06 [MatrxMT] I take issue with your use of the word soulless there 10:06 [MatrxMT] "just use AI" is also about as accurate as saying "use computer science" 10:07 [MatrxMT] Obviously, perfect solution (that is 100% accurate) doesn't exist. But I think we should work toward a *better* solution 10:07 [MatrxMT] Sorry, it was a kind of honestly bad word choose 10:09 [MatrxMT] Not "just use AI", we could train our own model, not the big llamas or chatgpt which have billions of params, but a relatively small that could be calculated pretty fast even on CPU, to help filter out "scunthorpe" cases 10:09 [MatrxMT] this is a do-ocracy, so get back to us when you have something deployable and lightweight enough if you really want to make it your goal 10:11 [MatrxMT] I'd like to first discuss the idea and then get to work if its really worth it. Sadly, but I don't really have time and trying to do my best and help this community grow. I have some ideas I'd like to implement on my own but it's really complicated.. 10:14 [MatrxMT] true, well, the do-ing isn't just hard dev work, you could look at what's on the issue tracker https://github.com/luanti-org/serverlist/issues 10:14 [MatrxMT] and consider making a proposal 10:14 sfan5 IMO there isn't urgent need to do anything right now 10:15 [MatrxMT] I thought about making a CLI mod manager to manage mods and games and about improving the server console, but I don't know if it will be really helpful for the people and if I, myself, can do it. I'm really insecure about my code and I'm afraid that people will say 'this is crap don't do that', but I fell like I already wrote it here.. 10:16 [MatrxMT] right now yes, but I think we should just think about it in case if it will be needed. It's better to have a plan than nothing 🙂 10:18 [MatrxMT] my first step when I consider what to make is to consider what's already out there, "prior art" 10:18 [MatrxMT] I've been around long enough to remember stuff, and offhand I remember there's already two CLI mod managers posted to the forums 10:19 [MatrxMT] that doesn't mean you should make your own, just try to make it different to and learn from what's come before 10:19 [MatrxMT] I searched if it was already made, of course, but I found the repos to be abandoned like some years ago 10:21 [MatrxMT] Luanti moves fairly slowly, so that doesn't really mean that what you found is obsolete 10:22 [MatrxMT] I thought about writing it in C++ so that I could try merging it into the game, so you could write in server console 'mod install author/modname`, reboot the server and it would be installed. It would keep track of the installed mods and notify/update the mods at command and such helpful things... 10:22 [MatrxMT] Didn't like the API for mods changed a bit for past few years? or is it just me? 10:23 sfan5 having a cli mod manager inside luanti would be far more useful 10:23 [MatrxMT] You can't imaging how got it is to hear it from you 😄 10:24 [MatrxMT] You can't imagine how got it is to hear it from you 😄 10:24 luatic i think a "CLI mod manager" is not *that* important to have. either you're a player and don't want to touch the command line - then you just manage content via the GUI. 10:24 [MatrxMT] You can't imagine how good it is to hear it from you 😄 10:24 [MatrxMT] 5.13 has some minor problems accumulated if your mod was made for earlier entries, but it should load mods that were mod for 5.0, just with minor issues 10:24 luatic or you're a "power user", say a server admin, then you probably manage your game as a collection of submodules or something similar and don't need a CLI mod manager either. 10:24 luatic (git submodules) 10:24 [MatrxMT] git for fetching mods hasn't changed, and I can't really say, but I don't think fetching ContentDB stuff across HTTP has changed much either 10:25 [MatrxMT] I thought about the content.luanti.org 10:25 luatic because contentdb has a decent HTTP API, it's pretty easy to write a script which uses that 10:25 [MatrxMT] agreed 10:26 sfan5 i think there's a space between player and power use where people are comfortable with a CLI to install mods but don't want to mess with git 10:27 [MatrxMT] I would urge people in that stage to just learn git, but there are still use cases like content that is not in git or fetching specific ContentDB releases 10:28 [MatrxMT] I also thought about something like pip freeze, so you could save the exact state of versions of your mods 10:29 rubenwardy I use a git repo with submodules for pip freeze like workflow 10:29 rubenwardy for servers 10:29 [MatrxMT] ^ what rubenwardy says is typical, https://github.com/pandorabox-io/pandorabox-mods is what I usually point to 10:30 [MatrxMT] but honestly, git submodules are a pain in the neck 10:33 [MatrxMT] So it is a generally poor/useless idea and I shouldn't really waste time on it. 10:33 [MatrxMT] But what about server console? I think everyone here at least tried to create a minecraft server, maybe long ago, but tried. 10:33 [MatrxMT] Personally, I really love minecraft console with its tab hints, command history, logs directory (its automatic compression on some software), working arrows and so on... 10:33 [MatrxMT] When I tried luanti, it was really sad to find that it doesn't have the same functionality (nor the normal mode, or the curses). And I thought about rewriting this stuff, but is it that needed? I understand that while I enjoy using server console, it seems that I am pretty lonely it this so will it be accepted if I do it? 10:36 [MatrxMT] you can make a feature request issue on the luanti repo to get feedback 10:37 [MatrxMT] Sounds like a good idea, thank you! 10:38 [MatrxMT] a lot of people manage their server with SSH into a linux system that holds the server, but your idea would really help average windows users 10:39 [MatrxMT] a competing idea is web-based interfaces for server management 10:39 [MatrxMT] that's more common in paid server hosting 10:39 [MatrxMT] I'm doing it too. I start the server using tmux and its pretty enough for me rn to use, but I'm talking about all that QoL additions 10:40 [MatrxMT] that's good to be thinking about, smoothing the workflow is good work to be doing 10:40 repetitivestrain i tend to administer my server by running /lua (which is provided by luatic's excellent dbg mod) 10:40 repetitivestrain and yes, i do not connect to my server as an administrator without connecting through a secure VPN 10:41 repetitivestrain on which account i disabled the condition which disables /lua by default in multiplayer sessions 10:41 repetitivestrain which i assume is far more versatile than minecraft's swing server console 10:43 [MatrxMT] what about having a console with all privs in the terminal the server is launched in, but that might cause problems with the player arg to commands 10:43 [MatrxMT] `/lua` is quite versatile, but unless you've built a decent library of lua functions to call, then it's not suited to repetitive tasks 10:43 [MatrxMT] Also, do chatcommands have tab completion? I can't find it but I seem to recall something... 10:44 [MatrxMT] they do not 10:44 [MatrxMT] they don't afaik 10:44 [MatrxMT] and it's the saddest thing for me 10:44 [MatrxMT] whereas you could write bash (or other system) autocompletion rules 10:45 [MatrxMT] autocompleting the command is easy but autocompleting the arguments would need a new api 10:46 [MatrxMT] you can't know if an argument is a player or an itemstring or a message in the current definitions 10:46 [MatrxMT] I thought about creating a kind of "completion server", it would receive the command do some priv checks and then send back possible variants for the completion. But i think it would require command's description. 10:46 [MatrxMT] Like, describe a command like this: 10:46 [MatrxMT] /ban 10:46 [MatrxMT] and the aforementioned server would parse this desc and complete with cycling player names if there is no name or complete the name of an online person from first letters 10:47 [MatrxMT] Like create something like "types" for arguments: players, time, coordinates, items, nodes and so on 10:47 [MatrxMT] watch out that you don't send a message too long or with too many newlines, the IRC bridge has been banned before.. :\ 10:48 [MatrxMT] Oh, sorry 10:48 [MatrxMT] then define a new api for defining new argument types 10:48 [MatrxMT] yes 10:49 [MatrxMT] I think I need to think it through very much to create a really good and flexible api 10:49 [MatrxMT] I would add a callback mechanism like on_player_tabcomplete(strCommandSoFar) -> returns a new string 10:49 luatic ^ yep, that's the kind of thing we'll want to do using SSCSM 10:49 [MatrxMT] that would be in C++ mind 10:49 [MatrxMT] that would be better done as a SSCSM 10:49 sfan5 guys there's an issue for this on github 10:49 sfan5 no need to recount everything 10:50 [MatrxMT] What is (SS)CSM? 10:50 [MatrxMT] server sent CSM 10:50 luatic the answer to life, the universe, and all the rest 10:50 [MatrxMT] csm is client side mod 10:50 [MatrxMT] 😂 10:51 [MatrxMT] https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/issues/9663 10:51 [MatrxMT] https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/issues/6450 10:51 [MatrxMT] And what's the problem with the sscsm? 10:51 [MatrxMT] it doesn't exist yet 10:52 [MatrxMT] https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20sscsm%20label%3ASSCSM 10:52 [MatrxMT] oh heh 10:53 [MatrxMT] As I see, it is a very powerful and needed thing. It is not being implemented for security reasons, an I understand? 10:53 [MatrxMT] no one is developing it yet afaik 10:54 [MatrxMT] unless someone is and its stuck in draft 10:54 [MatrxMT] that's one main reason, the other is the complexity of adding sending Lua to the client and having the client execute it 10:54 [MatrxMT] the main problem is making an acceptably-secure implementation, not a hackjob 10:54 [MatrxMT] how does a normal mod works then? isn't it being downloaded from server 10:54 [MatrxMT] it runs on the server 10:55 [MatrxMT] no, Luanti's mods all run on the server, and only some definitions of nodes, entities etc. and media are transmitted to the client 10:55 [MatrxMT] it is not being downloaded from the server, only the media (sounds, textures, models) are 10:55 [MatrxMT] oh wow 10:56 [MatrxMT] It's a two-edged sword: You can connect to any server without downloading anything beforehand, but the server can't do much at all with client-side prediction and offloading of tasks like drawing the inventory 10:59 luatic it's a difficult tradeoff between security, performance, and ease of implementation 10:59 [MatrxMT] I see now 12:30 cheapie I'm poking around at an old Core 2 Duo laptop here from about 2008, in a world with a bunch of mapgen mods installed, and... I must say, sitting around waiting on /emergeblocks is reminding me a lot of waiting on emerge back when I tried Gentoo on a VIA C3 :P 12:30 cheapie (maybe that's why it's called that, since they both use a lot of CPU time and take a while...) 23:57 MinetestBot whosit: May-07 06:48 UTC range_all has a different culling behavior than just setting a high view range