Time Nick Message 00:40 Sheriff_U3 It's interesting how many different things reference luanti pull request #1 00:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome 00:42 cheapie I've never understood why naturally-occuring glowstone is something people keep wanting to add every so often 00:42 cheapie Not just that PR but it's an idea that keeps showing up in mods every so often 00:43 Sheriff_U3 hmm I wonder why... 00:43 cheapie Also wow, that glowstone texture sucks... but I guess the textures all did back then 01:31 Menchers <3 programmer art 01:32 Menchers do you need more graphics skills than filling in a solid background and putting a gaussian noise filter over it :D 01:33 Sheriff_U3 not if your a programmer :D 01:33 Sheriff_U3 Leave it to the graphics artists 01:37 Sheriff_U3 What license is known as "Intel"?! I've got a script that prints out the different licenses declared by mods on ContentDB, it claims that there is one mod that is using a license called Intel 01:48 rubenwardy https://spdx.org/licenses/Intel.html 01:48 rubenwardy ContentDB just uses SPDX licenses 01:50 Sheriff_U3 thx 01:51 rubenwardy also a mistake, as the repo says MIT 01:52 Sheriff_U3 lol 01:55 rubenwardy Likely doesn't matter anyway as the code looks AI generated 02:01 Sheriff_U3 Some interesting AI disclosure stats from the same script: ContentDB mods AI disclosure: NONE: 1389/84%, GENERATED: 135/8%, ASSISTED: 129/8% 02:04 red-001 lol what's the difference between Generated and Assisted 02:05 red-001 is it like how you feel about it 02:05 user333_ what script are you using to get these stats? 02:05 cheapie I'm under the impression that "assisted" is like using an LLM for fancy autocomplete and stuff, while "generated" is more like "hey ChatGPT, write me a Luanti mod" 02:05 red-001 potato tomato 02:06 cheapie The ones labeled "generated" sure do seem to suck a whole lot harder than the "assisted" ones 02:06 red-001 but I guess the AI use policy is kinda based around the assumption that's a big difference so fair enough I suppose 02:06 red-001 I feel the suckiness factor might come down more to whatever someone is willing to call their mod AI generated 02:07 red-001 feel like you will avoid admitting that if the mod is at all good or you care at all or you aren't going full future vibe coding billionaire mode on this 02:07 Sheriff_U3 user333_: A modified version of one I found on the Luanti discord 02:08 user333_ ah 02:08 Sheriff_U3 Had to updated for the current ContentDb api and set it up to use the daily backups 02:09 cheapie red-001: My most-"helpful"-rated review is actually this one on a mod that's...... fairly typical of the "generated" ones, actually: https://content.luanti.org/threads/14865/ 02:10 Sheriff_U3 I'll release it once I finish it, when ever that ends up being... 02:10 user333_ speaking of contentdb, (a) is it easy, or at least possible, to host an instance without docker? and (b), can you get a copy of all games/mods/textures on it for your own instance? 02:11 red-001 user333_: why don't you want to use docker? 02:11 user333_ i don't like it 02:11 red-001 how I feel about Claude 02:11 red-001 eh 02:11 red-001 it should be pretty easy 02:12 red-001 as in not more difficult than setting up software used to be 02:12 user333_ docker is essentially a chroot anyway, should be easy 02:12 red-001 so like difficult enough 02:13 red-001 yeah I saw a guide the other day for how to build a basic container using namespaces and all that in like <1000 lines so if you really don't like docker I guess can always roll your own 02:13 red-001 probably every big company has their own internal container system that's like docker but not docker 02:13 user333_ i wrote my own service manager thingy that i use on my servers but not docker 02:14 user333_ it just runs them as an unprivileged user for sandboxing 02:14 red-001 I mean like not to be rude here but I don't imagine anyone else set it up without docker, I think you kinda need to just try that yourself 02:15 red-001 not really sure what difficulty scaling information anyone could give you that would be of any use 02:15 user333_ i'l figure it out 02:15 red-001 either you find it hard or you find it easy 02:15 red-001 for backups I don't think they include the actual mod contents? 02:15 red-001 I was under the impression it's just the metadata 02:16 Sheriff_U3 red-001: you are correct 02:16 red-001 and you would need to setup CDB to operate in I guess forwarding mode as a cache if you want to use that 02:17 user333_ contentdb but distributed like most package manager repos would be interesting, and probably faster 02:18 red-001 fast code for something relating to Luanti? 02:18 red-001 I don't think most package managers are distributed 02:18 red-001 well Windows is 02:19 user333_ i meant like mirrors that they can pull from 02:19 red-001 and it got hatred for that for some reason cause even when MSFT doesn't do something evil they get hatred for it (seems sometimes they mostly get hatred when they don't do something evil tbh, cause actual evil things are too political for gamers to care about) 02:19 red-001 ah yeah I mean 02:20 red-001 that kinda depends on someone being willing to host a mirror 02:20 red-001 I haven't found CDB to be slow 02:20 user333_ i have found it to be unreliable at times 02:20 red-001 the info fetch or the package download path? 02:21 user333_ info fetch i believe, maybe both 02:21 red-001 I said before info fetch could use with pagination so we aren't doing the entire package database in one request 02:21 red-001 at least on initial setup 02:22 red-001 idk how package download is routed 02:22 red-001 that's static I suppose so might be getting better pref from that? 02:23 red-001 then again I would imagine info is cached to some degree 02:24 red-001 #2 crazy that never got implemented in Minetest tbh 02:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/issues/2 -- Burned wood 02:29 Sheriff_U3 Who needs burned wood? Just vaporize it! 02:29 Sheriff_U3 Could have been cool to have charcoal as well though... 02:30 wsor4035 preferably with the nuke mod 02:37 red-001 cheapie: perhaps sufficiently low reviews should result in a mod being pulled pending manual re-approval tbh 02:37 red-001 that mod sounds terrible 02:37 cheapie red-001: Possibly, but reviews are so powerful on ContentDB that a review score of -1 tends to push most mods far enough down the list that nobody ever reviews them again 02:39 cheapie About the only times a package really gets more than two or three negative reviews is when it's a Crap Jam thing and so everyone is reviewing it 02:40 cheapie time* 02:43 Sheriff_U3 Maybe I'll start reviewing the packages with only one review then... 02:44 Sheriff_U3 1002 packages claim to support ALL GAMES on ContentDB 02:46 cheapie celevator supports all games (it has no hard dependencies), actually placing the nodes in a lot of those games is left as an exercise for the reader 02:47 Sheriff_U3 Still I wonder how many of those are inaccurate... 02:48 cheapie I can't remember if I took any screenshots of the time I installed an elevator in a Backrooms Test world 02:48 Sheriff_U3 🤣 02:49 cheapie Tested it in Air Game once too :P 02:52 MTDiscord > perhaps sufficiently low reviews should result in a mod being pulled pending manual re-approval tbh for what? lol 02:52 MTDiscord such nonsense unless there is a rule change 02:53 MTDiscord > 1002 packages claim to support ALL GAMES on ContentDB probably? because these are from before game support was added? citation needed 03:17 bgstack15 I doubt there are many people running ContentDB instances beyond just their own individual use, regardless of using docker or not. 03:33 bgstack15 user333_: I would be interested in mirroring/caching ContentDB, but the project isn't designed to let us randos host it and be officially listed as mirrors. So our mirrors have to be for personal use, lol 03:34 user333_ i'll set one up on my server tomorrow and maybe write a script to do it without docker for those interested 03:42 [MatrxMT] rubenwardy is actually interested in the possibility of having a CDN type system where downloads do come from different sources to spread load, but it's a tech challenge 10:26 MTDiscord @Blockhead256 would need to setup package signing I kinda feel for that 10:48 [MatrxMT] https://content.luanti.org/packages/Mish7913/natural_habitat/ has burned wood, if you need it 10:55 [MatrxMT] Actually I've been wondering why we don't have something like "untested". I totally understand and think it's cool to be able to install mods old like 10+ years. But contentdb should state that it's either supported (and tested) or say something like "could work / untested". That way we could also filter, test and ping the autor. I would also like to be able to mark an older mod (before game support) as "working" for the game I'm currenty ru 10:56 [MatrxMT] Actually I've been wondering why we don't have something like "untested". I totally understand and think it's cool to be able to install mods old like 10+ years. But contentdb should state that it's either supported (and tested) or say something like "could work / untested". That way we could also filter, test and ping the autor. I would also like to be able to mark an older mod (before game support) as "working" for the game I'm currently r 11:00 [MatrxMT] using an etablished company for cdn could become expensive quickly. Have you thought about having volunteers with bigger upstreams to act as a replicator? the packages need to be hashed in order to avoid malicous code injection. I think, the linux package systems do similar stuff. 18:11 Sheriff_U3 How did https://content.luanti.org/packages/Plutonium/plutoniumships/ pass https://content.luanti.org/policy_and_guidance/#23-language? It's in french! 18:11 ShadowBot https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/issues/23 -- French translation update by cisoun 18:12 MTDiscord the package details are in english, thats how it passed 18:17 Sheriff_U3 hmm ok 18:19 MTDiscord But the itemstrings... 18:19 MTDiscord Spammars really are everywhere 18:20 Sheriff_U3 I've made a pr to the author before that translated the entire mod to english and preserved his french strings. 18:21 Sheriff_U3 He turned it down because he was afraid of modifying the mod. 18:22 Sheriff_U3 Been thinking about forking it for a little while now... 18:22 Sheriff_U3 But I've got other things to work on. 19:17 rubenwardy The rules require the content to be in English too 19:20 rubenwardy But there's a pr that will make this not a problem soon 21:08 Sheriff_U3 rubenwardy: would it be possible to include unapproved packages in the daily backups? I'm working on a tool that parses through the backup to generate some basic stats. 21:11 Sheriff_U3 I'm referring to the ContentDB daily database dumps of course. 21:27 MTDiscord There generally is a reason they aren't approved 21:27 MTDiscord Legal/rules 21:30 Sheriff_U3 Just doesn't make much sense to have a state field in the daily dump if all the packages in it are approved. 21:32 Sheriff_U3 Every package in the dump has "state": "APPROVED" in it's index.json 21:35 MTDiscord <.zenonseth> state is a useful internal field for other reasons, it's not added specifically for the dump 21:35 MTDiscord <.zenonseth> it's just a side-effect that it appears there since its just for approved/published packages 21:35 MTDiscord there isn't really a legal issue afaik with just making downloadable user uploaded files, you could probably make it downloadable in the database dump 21:35 MTDiscord just means having to comply with takedown requests there too 21:36 cheapie Even just the metadata would be kind of neat, would be interesting to see what sort of packages have been rejected 21:36 MTDiscord <.zenonseth> > there isn't really a legal issue afaik with just making downloadable user uploaded files yes, there would be if the packages contain copyrighted material and the download host is CDB 21:37 MTDiscord <.zenonseth> > would be interesting to see what sort of packages have been rejected idk if that's legally as problem but also would kind of be like shaming users, and probably not the best idea, imho 21:37 MTDiscord so like Sheriff_U3 could do this but from an organisational perspective I think moderators want to have a way to be able to take packages actually private 21:38 MTDiscord I'm not sure right now what states the database has but including unapproved packages in a publicly viewable part would I presume require adding ways of suppressing packages from even that 21:38 MTDiscord (like in response to a lawful takedown request) 21:38 cheapie TBH for my curiosity, I'd be quite happy if we even just got a "top 10 weirdest rejected packages" thing posted sometime, with usernames and such stripped out :P 21:39 MTDiscord arguably would also need a legal hold state for malware 21:39 [MatrxMT] it seems more interesting from the outside than it is from the inside. The rejections are mostly crayon licences and poor quality code 21:39 MTDiscord <.zenonseth> > moderators want to have a way to be able to take packages actually private there is a way to delist package currently and it also happened recently for some 21:39 MTDiscord that's more debatable but certainly other things that would need a legal hold state that blocks access 21:40 Sheriff_U3 Right now my script outputs the following for package state: APPROVED 3455 21:40 cheapie Blockhead256: I don't know about you, but I find those (more so the poor quality code) interesting 21:40 MTDiscord <.zenonseth> interesting i wrote a mirror for CDB, and I have 3,463 packages found. :) 21:40 MTDiscord Sheriff_U3: what's your usecase for this? 21:40 cheapie I used to read The Daily WTF all the time just for that (and Error'd) before the site turned to crap 21:40 [MatrxMT] you can simulate it by asking an LLM to make you a mod and not fixing it up properly 21:41 cheapie > asking an LLM to make you a mod and not fixing it up properly 21:41 Sheriff_U3 red.023: statistics 21:41 cheapie Those seem to often get approved 21:41 MTDiscord The effects of "Claude Sonnet make me a mod" 21:41 MTDiscord really the effects of Claude Sonnet doing anything at all 21:41 [MatrxMT] the ones that get approved, the user was actually not a complete coding novice or more often approvers asked them to fix up the code 21:41 cheapie https://content.luanti.org/packages/DiamondFist/better_creative/ | https://content.luanti.org/packages/DiamondFist/chunk_mover/ | https://content.luanti.org/packages/ronrob-lu/escalator/ 21:41 MTDiscord <.zenonseth> not really, claude would either do a good job with licenses or wouldn't add any, it wouldn't quite write what people do 21:42 MTDiscord kinda seems like just the package metadata would be enough there 21:42 MTDiscord I think the issue with this is if it happens that sometimes actually needs to be blocked for a serious legal reason 21:43 [MatrxMT] 90% of the time, somebody uploaded minecraft textures again 21:43 MTDiscord like it's a public website, you unfortunately have to be ready to moderate for illegal content and speech that in and of itself could constitute an offense 21:44 Sheriff_U3 I found a script that luatic had made years ago that used the ContentDB API, updated it to use the daily dump and set it up to show more then just how many packages declare a particular license. 21:44 MTDiscord <.zenonseth> > 90% of the time, somebody uploaded minecraft textures again or non-fsf/osi licences and insist they're legal - the change of sound licenes on that one site did this a lot 21:44 MTDiscord like if someone posts their political manifesto about how they are going to kill the president that becomes an issue for everyone if you don't have a database state which preserves the data (likely a legal obligation to preserve it) while also making it not readable by anyone 21:45 Sheriff_U3 So just add a hidden state that doesn't get published to the daily backup. 21:45 MTDiscord <.zenonseth> yep that's totally a plausible scenario that can happen 👍 21:46 MTDiscord yeah I mean probably should have a legal hold state, and a content taken down state 21:46 sfan5 unrelated but I want to mention my idea of CDB automatically installing and running mods in sandbox to check if they even work again 21:46 MTDiscord <.zenonseth> yeah that was discussed at least recently, probably before that too 21:47 MTDiscord <.zenonseth> the best solution would be to setup someting on gh 21:47 MTDiscord I do kinda feel like legal hold might be one of those things never used but better have it and not use it than find yourself needing it and not having it 21:47 MTDiscord <.zenonseth> cdb server spinning up luanti instances is going to be intense 21:47 Sheriff_U3 sfan5: I've seen github actions that try to do that for prs, in some cases though the mod is fine but the action still fails 21:48 MTDiscord (along with having true delete, not just soft delete, sometimes you need to actually delete delete something, usually funnily enough in the state machine this might well be the next state after legal hold) 21:48 Sheriff_U3 https://github.com/mt-mods/xcompat/pull/76/checks 21:48 MTDiscord https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Oversight 21:49 MTDiscord > Suppression on Wikipedia (also known as oversight for historical reasons) is a form of enhanced deletion that, unlike normal page deletion or revision deletion, expunges information from any form of usual access, even by administrators. It is used within strict limits to protect privacy, remove defamatory material, and sometimes to remove serious copyright violations, from any edit, revision, page, or log entry on the English Wikipedia. 21:50 MTDiscord Sheriff_U3: I just don't know if your usecase is important enough to implement new states for 21:51 MTDiscord like pre-approval access is only a internal policy issue, but access for anything rejected might move towards being a compliance issue 21:51 Sheriff_U3 Sounds like I need to start a poll then to gain some support 21:52 MTDiscord like at least I think would need DMCA hold states and Oversight/Suppression style expunged/soft-delete/legal hold states 22:00 red-001 Sheriff_U3: sure I mean why not make an issue on the CDB github 22:01 Sheriff_U3 CDB issues are quite dead though... 22:01 Sheriff_U3 I'll make one though 22:03 red-001 like there's no particular issue with giving access to unapproved mods or their metadata, I'm not sure to what degree however CDB distinguishes between rejected mods and not yet approved ones 22:03 red-001 obligations at best start once you have a person look at the mod 22:10 Sheriff_U3 https://github.com/luanti-org/contentdb/issues/681 for anyone interested. 22:23 rubenwardy I could expose some information from /admin/approval_stats/ about the approval queue