Time Nick Message 01:04 MTDiscord Gonna migrate the last four articles now 🙂 https://wiki.luanti.org/Objects https://wiki.luanti.org/Player https://wiki.luanti.org/Programs_and_Editors https://wiki.luanti.org/Punching 01:25 MTDiscord Is this still accurate? Players appear as 3D models similar to Minecraft. However, they never hold any blocks or items in hand and never look up or down. As of version 0.4.10, there is a third person view to see oneself. Press F7 to switch between camera modes. The pitch (vertical viewing angle) of a player is not visible to other players by default. The pitch of a player is between -89.5 and 89.5 degrees. 01:26 MTDiscord The only relevant info there is the camera modes and the pitch limits 01:26 MTDiscord Ugh, gonna leave this for now, we've never added inline images but this is better than nothing I think :/ 01:26 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/1334696289924939807/image.png?ex=679d7848&is=679c26c8&hm=0f05c0faa1770d3e9dd74604dd9410d37adc1a4a66dadc72712f4d658641bc33& 01:27 MTDiscord Debatable that can be removed 01:27 MTDiscord While health is a builtin mechanism, it is often overridden 01:27 MTDiscord changed to this 01:27 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/1334696650416984195/image.png?ex=679d789e&is=679c271e&hm=1dc5fc7e5b7d72ebf8fee27aeb08aa72d4e6473644737882577f87374f2e2e6f& 01:28 MTDiscord generally we don't police content too much on migration, happy to revisit once it's actually merged 01:57 MTDiscord lol something so ominous about this 01:57 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/1334704194954727505/image.png?ex=679d7fa5&is=679c2e25&hm=43060c734abda8509fb2843769349575a1ff6a1798f4803e81ce89ae1ab783a0& 02:07 MTDiscord https://github.com/luanti-org/dev.luanti.org/pull/159 ready for review, importing the final 3 files! 04:35 MTDiscord Looks like https://github.com/luanti-org/dev.luanti.org/issues/80 is next on the roadmap, feel free to update it with details as needed 🙂 09:53 MTDiscord I don't have the time do that for now Remember that often teachers (and new users in general) need informations that might seem very basic to devs. But some pages are 100% trash. Except maybe the page title. 11:29 MTDiscord it's ok, there's no hurry. even if the wiki will be shut down soon I'll still be holding onto export backups of the content as it was 11:30 MTDiscord merging https://github.com/luanti-org/dev.luanti.org/pull/159 in 10m 16:28 MTDiscord this stuff should be nested under anything but edu tbh, and then linked from the edu page if neccessary tbh 16:30 MTDiscord im updating the roadmap to include domain remain + wiki/dev rredirection to it, any objections? 16:33 MTDiscord added, can remove if anyone screams i guess 16:33 MTDiscord also unpinned the dev wiki issue since its closed 16:35 MTDiscord @luatic re wiki.luanti.org, since roller has a backup, c55 will have the source still, worth moving ahead with domain repointing, or would you like to do something with that content first? 16:47 MTDiscord Maybe we should add something to the about page saying "If you'd like to see the old wiki, go to this GitHub repo"? 16:49 MTDiscord meh 🤷 16:50 MTDiscord Not much value having backups if readers don't know where to find them. A link on the site is a lot easier than the implied "make a forum post or Discord message asking about this and wait for someone to see it and share the link with you" 16:52 MTDiscord the idea is anything of value should be migrated 16:52 MTDiscord the old forum, etc arent linked to 16:52 MTDiscord throwing the link in the comment of a few issues isnt a bad idea 16:52 MTDiscord The question is whether the reader might disagree with our definition of "value". We are clearly saying "detailed docs of Minetest Game are excluded" where others might think "wait, my mod is based on MTG, I want to learn more about it" 16:53 MTDiscord yes, i need to wiki to see how to craft x, because im to stupid to use the craft guide 16:53 MTDiscord The old wiki had a different goal, it still answers some questions better than the new docs do 16:54 MTDiscord I don't think we should insult our readers. Adding a link is very easy and will provide some value for some folks. I'm not sure what the problem is 16:54 MTDiscord sarcasm aside, most of what is left on the wiki is craft pages. which are literally worthless. as a side note, people other than me should check the wiki to make sure i didnt miss anything when making the link 16:54 MTDiscord Emphasis on "most" 16:55 MTDiscord I would hope that the old wiki backups would include history, and you could just dump a final snapshot of the full wiki history somewhere, let people have access to everything that's been on there, and be done with it. 16:56 MTDiscord Plus, some people might just want to know what the docs looked like in the past for historical purposes. Let's just link to the repo for that reason alone, to satisfy curiosity 16:58 MTDiscord pretty much 16:58 MTDiscord rollers has some history, c55 has the full picture 16:58 MTDiscord i can not put something up right now 16:59 MTDiscord i also can't really promise that i can do something with it soon 17:00 MTDiscord its backed up, so can do whatever you want with it at some point, so would you be fine with us proceeding then? 17:04 MTDiscord i won't mind much. however for the "average wiki user" these sites would become less accessible for now. i don't know how much that matters. 17:05 MTDiscord would it be an option to have the old wiki live on, say, under old-wiki.luanti.org? is that possible with little effort on celeron's part? 17:06 MTDiscord cc @rollerozxa, thoughts on us just making mtg.luanti.org, migrating non craft guide stuff to it? 17:07 MTDiscord perhaps, dont really want slow/ancient site living on if we can help it 17:15 MTDiscord I don't think we need to keep any old sites live, just source-available with build instructions. Again I don't think the old sites are that valuable, but the source of the old sites should be easily discoverable by someone on the new site. Keeping old sites live is a high cost for little return 17:17 MTDiscord would it point to the old wiki or a new site just for the MTG content? 17:17 MTDiscord I don't think c55 is going to publish the full database and mediawiki config, if that's what you're thinking about 17:18 MTDiscord new site, hugo+theme+markdown contents. cant be that many pages that are mtg and not crafting left 17:18 MTDiscord sure, sounds good 17:19 MTDiscord basically the options currently are 1. who cares, burn it. exports exist if anyone wants to do anything with it 2. keep the old wiki running under new url for some reason 3. mtg.luanti.org with non crafting guide pages 17:19 MTDiscord i lean towards 1 or 3 17:20 MTDiscord 1 is more preferable since im lazy, but i also see a point to 3 17:27 MTDiscord anyone else have another options? could run a poll here 17:30 MTDiscord I guess I could see what will happen if I take the XML export and write (let chatgpt write) a script that extracts the latest contents of a page and feeds it into pandoc, then see how well it works if we just dump the MTG pages 17:31 MTDiscord (it may happen to already be cooking) 17:31 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/1334939156874395739/image.png?ex=679e5a78&is=679d08f8&hm=00c02e608b4e07ecd0f4b12ae2edfc92de09d6fcce1fb10d0ed632bf78456ec4& 17:32 MTDiscord when it comes to translations of MTG pages, should we try to keep them or just throw those out like when we've been migrating all the other pages 17:32 MTDiscord throw em out, there probably outdated 17:32 MTDiscord indeed 17:32 MTDiscord also easy enough to readd if needed 17:35 MTDiscord i guess, should check with @celeron55 to make sure that the mtg.luanti.org idea is fine by them. the short version of the idea is any mtg specific content left on wiki.luanti.org will be moved to a repo hosting a mtg.luanti.org site, then the wiki.luanti.org/wiki.minetest.net can be pointed at the current docs sites. any objections to that? 17:44 MTDiscord so this is what I ended up with 17:44 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/1334942324224036956/pages_from_20241220_export_culled_mtg.zip?ex=679e5d6c&is=679d0bec&hm=bcfdc42c4f408d737cc8f4c12f3595d484e17ee485e8062785c48e5e040341cd& 17:44 MTDiscord deleted all language pages and went through quickly and removed most pages that aren't MTG-related. but haven't done anything with the content other than the automatic conversion 17:44 MTDiscord Why do we want mtg.luanti.org? Just to document Minetest Game? If so, I think that should be low priority. I'd focus our efforts on cleaning up the engine docs first 17:45 MTDiscord My fourth option is "upload the backup data to a GitHub repo, link to the GH repo from the "about this site" page of our new Luanti Documentation site 17:45 MTDiscord https://github.com/rollerozxa/mt-wiki-dumping-ground/blob/master/raw-exports/Luanti%2BWiki-20241220214815.xml 17:45 MTDiscord I worry hosting yet another domain will be a high cost with a low reward. Cost in both money and maintenance 17:47 MTDiscord subdomains hosted on github pages are free? 17:47 MTDiscord the maintenance cost will be quite a lot for whoever will be going through the contents, since the MTG pages use a lot of mediawiki template magic. but that's for whoever decides to do that 17:47 MTDiscord Exactly, maybe just add some "how to view" instructions here. But it seems this is a super compressed single-file view? Maybe we include a quick tool that parses the XML into something more reader-friendly? Even that isn't necessary for now in my book, as long as we're confident that the XML is comprehensive 17:47 MTDiscord That's one of us 17:48 MTDiscord I think the plan was to dump the contents and let others who are interested in maintaining the MTG stuff to come. and if they don't then that won't be our issue 17:48 MTDiscord Ah, wasn't sure who would be hosting or how. I know GH Pages isn't meant for big live sites but I'm not sure if they actually throttle access. Maybe money isn't the biggest cost 17:49 MTDiscord What others might there be? I feel like with MTG as the "official" Luanti game, the expectation would be that the Luanti docs team handles it. As long as we're clear that that's not the case that's fine 17:52 MTDiscord well realistically there might not even be anyone interested 17:52 MTDiscord Exactly. In that case, why host old bad docs on an official subdomain? 17:53 MTDiscord There may be people interested in viewing how the docs used to be, so we should link the archive. But until we are confident someone actually wants to maintain them, we shouldn't host them on an official subdomain. It'd make us look bad, imo 17:54 MTDiscord fair enough. 1 sounds like the best option until someone would step forward 17:54 MTDiscord If we do host on a subdomain, I'd strongly advise a notice on each page "this is an archive and not maintained" 17:54 MTDiscord Yeah, as long as we link to the exports from the main site that works for me. As of now these exports are not easy to find 17:55 MTDiscord "that" == "option 1" 17:55 MTDiscord I don't know how useful of a state the exports are as-is though 17:55 MTDiscord but yes, better than not linking them 17:57 MTDiscord also dumping the generated script I used in case @luatic is interested in iterating on it: https://gist.github.com/rollerozxa/886db932ee56c44154913b2880d3025f 17:57 MTDiscord Yeah, that's why I want us to make sure they're "reasonably viewable" without some external tool. E.g. images load, basic text formatting can be extracted, image captions are present, etc. I'm worried if we abandon the archives, we may learn later that we missed something. I'd advocate for us to work through and document "build" instructions to get the archive from XML to HTML to make sure the archive is "valid" and not missing 17:57 MTDiscord some critical metadata or something to be viewable 17:58 MTDiscord you would need a full database export and a local mediawiki instance for that 18:01 MTDiscord Nothing is viewable without an external tool; even text files require a text editor. Expecting people to restore a backup into a mediawiki instance isn't all that bad, considering the intended audience, as long as we have an actual process for it. Which we'd have to have in order to be able to test and confirm that we actually have backups. 18:01 MTDiscord (A file dumped out of a system and labeled as a "backup" isn't actually a backup; it becomes a backup when you confirm that the data you expect it to contain is actually there, which requires you to be able to interpret it) 18:02 MTDiscord Probably one person (i.e. c55) is going to have to make dumps of the relevant information available, and then some other person (maybe you) will have to care enough to actually do the work to keep it available to other users. 18:03 MTDiscord yes I think I might have been a bit unclear, this is not a backup, it is way too incomplete to serve as a full backup but it is the next best thing to c55 dumping the whole database and image directory for us 18:03 MTDiscord In the end, "I care enough about this to complain but not to actually fix it" is just "I don't care" but with extra noise. 18:04 MTDiscord indeed 18:05 MTDiscord "Partial credit" is absolutely a thing when it comes to backups. It's good to know that we have at least something until we can get an actual final dump from c55, in case we never actually manage to get it. 18:05 MTDiscord Sorry, when I said external tool, I meant external data, my bad 18:05 MTDiscord Probably there's a certain minimum amount of data (auth, and potentially some PII or contact info) that c55 would want to purge from a backup, but most of what's in the wiki should be dumpable. 18:07 MTDiscord I do care lol, I'm just, you know, at work right now 18:07 MTDiscord I will do the work, I just want to make sure we make the backups visible to users asap so they know where to go once the site is taken down if they're curious 18:08 MTDiscord And yes, backups are not backups until they're validated. I'm happy to validate them, just not right this moment. 18:09 MTDiscord Personally I like the idea of going the "transparency route" and just making whatever we have available to users immediately, and then they have the option of either figuring it out themselves or waiting for us, or somebody else, to figure out how to make use of it. The alternative is just taking away the figure-it-out-yourself option and forcing people to wait for somebody else. 18:10 MTDiscord My concern goes back to shifting the docs under the user's feet. If folks go to wiki.luanti.org tomorrow and find themselves at dev.luanti.org for the first time, they might be confused and frustrated. Clearly stating "this is the new docs site, here is a backup of the old one, here is how to propose edits" will really really help them not get lost. We already made this new site without any announcement and I think that was a bit 18:10 MTDiscord of a mistake. Redirecting wiki.luanti.org without a very clear announcement will paint us in a bad light, I think 18:11 MTDiscord Signing off for work for the day 18:26 MTDiscord so it sounds like the serious options are 1 and 3 18:28 MTDiscord 1 and 2 sound like the same option to me, the only difference being whether somebody on the MTG side of things decides to take on responsibility for republishing the exports. 18:32 MTDiscord wait to see what c55 says on this, but this is what im leaning towards. being in the same state as mtg, maintence only 19:58 MTDiscord Well, I suppose it's me who should determine the popularity of the mtg content 20:01 MTDiscord do you have objections/thoughts on this? 20:10 MTDiscord It makes sense, if there is demand for the mtg wiki content 20:10 MTDiscord If there is no demand, then it doesn't make sense 20:10 MTDiscord demand would probably have to be calculated by server logs limited to just mtg pages 20:13 MTDiscord Not sure how to filter those 20:14 MTDiscord i mean, the fastest thing is throw goaccess at the logs and pull up the requested files view 20:14 MTDiscord https://goaccess.io/man > Requested files: This panel displays the most highly requested (non-static) files on your web server. It shows hits, unique visitors, and percentage, along with the cumulative bandwidth, protocol, and the request method used. 20:15 MTDiscord $ tail -n100000 access.log | grep wiki.luanti.org | grep -v images | grep -v resources | grep -v load.php | grep -v Special | wc -l 20:15 MTDiscord take the top 10 20:15 MTDiscord Fuck 20:17 MTDiscord This probably doesn't say much to you but I'll make a comparison. That's basically the count of wiki page accesses since about 6 hours ago 20:18 MTDiscord $ tail -n100000 access.log | grep viewtopic.php | wc -l 42310 20:18 MTDiscord That's forum topic accesses during the same time 20:18 MTDiscord The point is: the wiki is barely used to begin with 20:19 MTDiscord so go with option 1, keep option 3 as a back pocket for multiple screaming people 20:21 MTDiscord If you'd intend to improve upon the mtg content, that could be an argument for saving it. Improving it could increase the popularity of it. But if it'd just be essentially an archive of what there is, I'd assume it would be about as popular as currently 20:22 MTDiscord This of course is the argument for saving parts of the wiki - those parts that are worth improving upon 20:22 MTDiscord we already saved the non mtg parts 20:22 MTDiscord Yeah, that's what I'm referring to 20:23 MTDiscord so.... i guess that at this point in time not doing anything with mtg content, do you want to do domain stuff now, or some other time when your more available? 20:24 MTDiscord How much effort would there be in making a static archive of the wiki content and slap it onto mtg.luanti.org, just to have it around? 20:25 MTDiscord roller already made a zip of it md converted, probably in about an hour or two i could have a repo version like dev.luanti.org ready for you to point a subdomain at it 20:25 MTDiscord That's what I was thinking. If it's so little, it's much more difficult to argue against 20:26 MTDiscord ill just make a mtg.luanti.org repo on the luanti-org github org? 20:26 MTDiscord and bug you say tommorrow "afternoon" (around now) for dns stuff? 20:26 MTDiscord I can't help it feeling wrong though 20:26 MTDiscord in what way? 20:27 MTDiscord It puts mtg into a hilight it doesn't deserve 20:27 MTDiscord ah, yes 20:27 MTDiscord i mean, think of it just as a maintiance only thing like the minetest game project perhaps 20:28 MTDiscord I mean, it could also be under game.minetest.net to distance it a bit 20:28 MTDiscord that feels to agnostic tho 20:28 MTDiscord fair 20:28 MTDiscord like i would think game.minetest.net would be something about making games for luanti, rather than just mtg stuff 20:29 MTDiscord I was talking about specifically using the old minetest.net domain 20:29 MTDiscord yeah, i just caught that lol 20:29 MTDiscord dumb me 20:30 MTDiscord i mean, mtg is very much a just this community acronym, to anyone else it means magic the gathering. maybe minetest_game.luanti.org? 20:32 MTDiscord What if the content was on docs.luanti.org, tucked away as a single top level topic? 20:32 MTDiscord Maybe we need to wait for the screams first 20:32 MTDiscord pretty clear from most discussions that "we" dont want it 20:32 MTDiscord also https://github.com/luanti-org/dev.luanti.org/issues/80 20:36 MTDiscord Any thoughts on mtg vs minetest_game? 20:38 MTDiscord Yes the full minetest_game name is a good idea 20:41 MTDiscord Would you like to switch to docs.luanti.org now? Or tomorrow? I guess that's one thing to do soon 20:43 MTDiscord I suppose it would be fine to do the subdomain switch now, if you have the time 20:46 MTDiscord Well it takes almost no time from me 20:48 MTDiscord I added the DNS entry 20:48 MTDiscord (CNAME docs.luanti.org -> luanti-org.github.io) 20:49 MTDiscord you making the commit roller to change it? 20:49 MTDiscord you'll have to change it in the repository settings 20:49 MTDiscord ah wait, its settings 20:49 MTDiscord thats me 20:50 MTDiscord CNAME file isn't used when it's deployed using github actions 20:50 MTDiscord dns check in progress 20:50 MTDiscord setting up a redirect on your server for dev.luanti.org -> docs.luanti.org would be needed too 20:51 MTDiscord also change the dev.minetest.net to docs.luanti.org instead of dev.luanti.org 20:51 MTDiscord done 20:54 MTDiscord look good? 20:54 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/1334990113255723090/image.png?ex=679e89ed&is=679d386d&hm=7257a158e10c16bbc4792a7343ba62b2b092f1b96d3aafc8ad4f21b1d7b745df& 20:54 MTDiscord look good 20:54 MTDiscord (though I guess you were asking c55) 20:55 MTDiscord i assumed https://discord.com/channels/369122544273588224/926231483155378176/1334986266122387507 20:56 MTDiscord well, anyways, i made the repo, added docs team to it 21:02 MTDiscord Done 21:05 MTDiscord yay 21:08 MTDiscord c55: you also want to redirect wiki.luanti.org and wiki.minetest.net to docs.luanti.org? 21:18 MTDiscord also im ready for the minetest_game.luanti.org dns 21:23 MTDiscord roller: from this export i only want to pull out non crafting guide things, right? 21:25 MTDiscord or just stick it all in there, who cares? 21:26 MTDiscord do whatever sounds simplest 21:26 MTDiscord (and it's likely going to be a mess either way) 21:32 MTDiscord I added that already 21:32 MTDiscord I'll do this latet 21:32 MTDiscord ok 21:34 MTDiscord so much mediawiki junk in this export 21:40 MTDiscord yeah... 21:44 MTDiscord regex replace to the rescue to nuke all of it 21:48 MTDiscord well, i have ripped out enough mess that hugo will start now lol 21:50 MTDiscord yeah.... it still looks like crap 21:58 MTDiscord try running branch https://github.com/luanti-org/minetest_game.luanti.org/tree/data_import not sure what of value that has 22:04 MTDiscord Enforce HTTPS — Unavailable for your site because your domain contains invalid characters da heck? 22:05 MTDiscord minetest_game.luanti.org it dns checks just fine, resolves just fine 22:06 MTDiscord apparently underscore isn't valid in certificate hostnames 22:06 MTDiscord thats... dumb. 22:06 MTDiscord is -? 22:07 MTDiscord dash is valid, yeah 22:07 MTDiscord so i guess will have to change that 22:08 MTDiscord so should i work on further cleaning this up? 22:10 MTDiscord I mean, I don't really know if it's worth it 22:10 MTDiscord true 22:11 MTDiscord ill just clean it up minimally a bit more, and then it will all be there. can wash our hands of it after that? 22:12 MTDiscord well, stripping stuff is easy, fixing links is.... meh 22:13 MTDiscord maybe i should just strip the links and leave the text behind? 22:15 MTDiscord is there a way to configure Hugo so that default page permalinks don't have a slash at the end 22:15 MTDiscord at that point the wikilinks for pages that exist internally should all work again 22:17 MTDiscord google is your friend? but it wont since i renamed the pages to text-text-text format 22:19 MTDiscord ill play with this some more tonight. see what i can come up with