Time Nick Message 01:04 _Mis_Nanina_ Hello 01:04 _Mis_Nanina_ Fuck 01:04 _Mis_Nanina_ Jshshwjhsbshsgsb ajgsbs 01:04 _Mis_Nanina_ Ushsbajahsbshjhbjdbhkgd sjhudbgyhubdrbrcehbucefuihebvfef 01:06 Xiong _Mis_Nanina_, I don't recall your nick. Please be so good as to show just a bit of coherence. I don't want to rush to conclusions. May we be of service? 01:07 GreenDimond No we may not - they have already left. 01:08 diemartin RIP 01:08 Xiong Well GreenDimond, I'm calling it drive-by nut. 01:09 Xiong Sincerely, I don't like to make snap judgements. 01:11 Xiong Well. Let me tell where I'm at. I've played through a game: 5.0.0, v7, technic with plenty of trimmings. I've got to the stage of running multiple overlapping quarries. I see no need whatever for the reactor. 01:11 _Mis_Nanina_ Hello 01:12 GreenDimond Ah, she has returned. 01:12 GreenDimond Good luck, Xiong. 01:12 _Mis_Nanina_ Um hello 01:12 diemartin Greetings. 01:13 _Mis_Nanina_ GreenDiamond let me tell you somthing*It s like somthing for a nexxrsd in English 01:13 _Mis_Nanina_ Greetings,dieemartin 01:14 hecks Forget about TLS, irc needs breathalyzers 01:14 _Mis_Nanina_ Has anyone seen a picture of dying irc from lovekittys 01:15 _Mis_Nanina_ Heck’s 01:15 _Mis_Nanina_ Hecks 01:15 _Mis_Nanina_ HELLO 01:16 _Mis_Nanina_ Then if I kinda get that taxtixom from 01:16 Xiong Welcome back, _Mis_Nanina_. It's not clear to me how your question can be answered. 01:17 _Mis_Nanina_ Um I know but I’m I have to tell you somthing 01:17 Xiong This chan is about the game, Minetest. Most discussion is somewhat technical. 01:18 _Mis_Nanina_ Xiang I got a sr 01:19 Xiong If you're new to IRC... most channels are more or less confined to a narrow topic. There are several that welcome general discussion. 01:21 _Mis_Nanina_ Yeah I’m kinda new...One time I was in a bossy irc I got bullied and then kicked kicked and I got banned so I think I like this one more then the other one but the tactisom will get bad if I can’t control myself so I know capture the flag I played it’s like minecraft 0.1 01:21 Xiong Ah... also, not to denigrate but merely to inform... as odd and pedantic as it may seem, most IRC users are somewhat careful about spelling, although many shortcuts are used. 01:22 Xiong We might be more helpful if you put your... comments? in context. 01:23 _Mis_Nanina_ Ah ah ah ah ah NO......That channel is BAD I never knew but this girl name Veronica she is a meanie so my name is 01:23 _Mis_Nanina_ And what do you mean context? 01:23 Xiong Which "that channel"? This is ##minetest. 01:25 Xiong Well. Context is information already known to your audience. You link your new thoughts to old ones. 01:25 _Mis_Nanina_ Oh.Taht bossy channel is called #CutieMinetezsBullys and the boss was.....GreenDiamond..And my name is Naskita and nick name Nanina....So please don’t talk to GreenDiamond,Xinong 01:26 Xiong Okay, that's context. 01:26 VanessaE GreenDimond is a well-respected participant here, _Mis_Nanina_. 01:27 VanessaE whatever problem you have with him or the channel he runs, please do not discuss it here. 01:27 GreenDimond Perhaps now is the time to make that "snap judgement" - this is fake. 01:27 Xiong _Mis_Nanina_, I'm not the boss here and please don't take what I say in any sort of authoritative voice. This channel is definitely not for resolution of disputes in that channel. 01:28 _Mis_Nanina_ Ooh um how how do you do the red name like VanessaE 01:28 Xiong Also not for that. 01:29 VanessaE _Mis_Nanina_: my name probably turned red because I turned on channel operator mode. 01:29 _Mis_Nanina_ Um I’m getting. A little scared 01:29 Xiong I'm about the most liberal adult when it comes to topic. But even I think it's out of the box. 01:30 _Mis_Nanina_ Um How do you do that VanessaE the operator mode. 01:30 VanessaE you don't. 01:31 _Mis_Nanina_ Wait I will leave for 2 mine. 01:31 Xiong -- anyway -- As I said, I've about run current game to the end. I have observations and I face a decision. 01:34 Xiong First, great improvements have been made in core and in most of the many mods I've loaded up. Tip of the hat to VanessaE, who has ironed out many kinks both internal to mods and mismatches among them. I do see a lot of hard work over the past five years. 01:35 LadyPyle Hello 01:36 GreenDimond Greetings 01:36 VanessaE LadyPyle: Official RC1: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=22078 -- daily builds: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=3837 (Linux) or https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=17439 (Windows) 01:36 VanessaE in case you wondered why you couldn't get back on my servers. 01:36 diemartin No Android 5.0 yet? :-( 01:36 VanessaE nope 01:36 GreenDimond Stu has 5.0 Android builds 01:36 VanessaE oh 01:37 VanessaE oh right, I've used one of hie 01:37 GreenDimond https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=21526 01:37 VanessaE his 01:37 VanessaE derp 01:37 * VanessaE adds that link to her topic 01:37 diemartin He does? Thanks GreenDimond. 01:37 Xiong However, the technic stack, all the way down to core engine, is riddled with bugs, playability issues, and useless features. I've patched a couple and had decided how to patch several more. It's a long list. 01:38 VanessaE thanks, GD. :) 01:39 Xiong VanessaE, will RC1 client run on your servers? Or must the client be updated nightly? 01:39 VanessaE it will run. 01:39 VanessaE but RC2 is in the works already, just FYI. 01:40 Xiong And... we expect RC1 client to fail on RC2 server? 01:40 VanessaE nah 01:40 VanessaE anything 5.0.0 from rc1 on up should be cross-compat with everything else from that point on. 01:41 VanessaE (5.0.0 did get a protocol change some time long before rc1 came out, but that's irrelevant now) 01:41 diemartin Rc1 has some showstoppers IIRC 01:41 VanessaE yeah 01:41 VanessaE but they're being fixed. 01:44 Xiong Thanks. I have to say, semver makes this kind of question unnecessary. *sigh* 01:45 Xiong I do want to try your server but Android is a straitjacket. Updating is messy and maintaining multiple executables is a nightmare. 01:46 Xiong Let me catch up my summary. I want input. 01:48 Xiong My third comment is that technic still seems like a solution in search of a problem... or a marathon without a finish line (or even a paper cup of Gatorade). Fun stuff but to what end? 01:50 Xiong By the time you have quarries running, you already have tools sufficient to mine large quantities of anything you desire... if not, you won't have quarries running. 01:50 hecks I agree, but the problem is with the rest of the game; technic provides a decent tech tree at least 01:50 hecks technic would be much better with VAOs 01:51 hecks I'd have more fun with technic if it were capable of making machines that can dig their own tunnels, but even with frames the quarries are too limited for that. 01:51 Xiong hecks, technic has a great tech tree. Outstanding. Poorly planned but... dunno, 73% rational. 01:52 GreenDimond use digtron for tunnels 01:52 GreenDimond really good mod 01:52 hecks The problem is that there's still no "game" in "minetest game" and clobbering dozens of mods together will not create that game out of thin air 01:52 Xiong Noticed digtron. May try it. 01:52 hecks and any game you try to create with one mod will have a problem playing well with existing mods 01:52 Xiong hecks++ 01:53 hecks The only solution is to subgame from scratch and borrow ideas from mtg mods, treat them as an example. 01:53 Xiong Although I don't require a game with defined goal. I enjoy open-ended toys. 01:53 hecks I enjoyed it too until bugs ate my frameship 01:54 hecks one of those days, if anyone's gonna get off their arse and do VAOs it'll be me 01:54 Xiong My last point is just that technic, on its own, goes nowhere. 01:54 Xiong VAOs? 01:55 hecks Movable, rotating node chunks that don't suck. 01:55 hecks The feature that everyone talks about and nobody wants to work on. 01:55 Xiong "Frames"? 01:56 hecks Frames provide similar functionality but they suck. 01:56 Xiong Okay well. 01:56 hecks I want my ships to turn, and I need VAOs for that. 01:57 Xiong Not to imply any link... 01:57 hecks VAOs done right will require an overhaul of the whole world system and that's why nobody is doing them. 01:58 Xiong I'm not looking to create another tier of complexity for complexity's sake... either by extending technic or through another mod. 01:59 Xiong I think the appropriate route... offramp... from success in technic should be thematic, aesthetic, and social. 02:00 hecks Sending a self propelled nuke at someone is a wonderful goal for a game of technic, at the moment. 02:00 Xiong Let me... backfill here. 02:02 Xiong Technic, IMO, must be considered together with mesecons and pipeworks. Last time I was in, digilines wasn't up; recently VanessaE jumped it well forward. 02:04 hecks There's already a problem with this mod combo; technic requires power, while mesecons "just work". 02:05 Xiong I think mesecons is a nasty smelly pile of what the dog ate. I blame nobody here for this. My understanding is that mesecons is an imitation of a MC feature. So we've just copied a bad design. I wish to bulldoze the mess. Perhaps digilines is a win; I'll have to try. 02:05 hecks Mesecons already provide a lot of useful nodes, redundant with some of technic's stuff. Maybe the issue is that technic does not override the mesecons nodes. 02:06 hecks Xiong, you said something very crucial here 02:06 hecks > My understanding is that mesecons is an imitation of a MC feature. So we've just copied a bad design. I wish to bulldoze the mess. 02:06 Xiong hecks Not sure why the power issue. Signals don't usually consume much power; industrial machines do. 02:06 hecks replace "mesecons" with just about anything there 02:06 Xiong Well wait. 02:07 hecks and the power issue is that node breakers, placers, pipeworks filters, etc. do not require power 02:07 Xiong Pipeworks isn't perfect but it's damn good, both on it's own and supporting technic. 02:07 hecks I can make a seed-sieving machine without as much as an LV power source. This is the problem. 02:08 hecks Mese is just too damn magical 8) 02:08 Xiong Well. Issue. 02:09 Xiong I object to other aspects. But I agree that when mesecons starts digging nodes, it's no longer merely blinky lights and turning heavy machinery on... and shouldn't do that. 02:10 Xiong But... as I say, I wish to doze mesecons right off the table. 02:11 hecks iirc my frameship required no power to move and keep the lights on 02:11 Xiong And yes, in my view, technic itself needs an overhaul anyway. I'm only happy with the P in PMT. 02:12 Xiong Ideally, everything electrical should consume power. 02:13 Xiong I'm an EE, so I tend to get emotional about this. I try to relax. 02:13 hecks ...mesecons have no resistance 02:14 Xiong Well, trchnic cable doesn't, either. In fact the whole model is weird. 02:15 hecks neither do technic cables, and heat, and holy mackerel, how could you implement accurate nuclear fuel production and yet forget about that 02:15 Xiong I keep looking at the switch saying "1500 W in, 0 W out" and scratching my head. It's impossible. 02:16 hecks todo: general purpose spatial simulation api for things like heat, pressure, electric current, etc 02:16 Xiong Yes yes haha reactor cooling a little puddle around the core! And P has liquid pumping now, yes? 02:16 hecks even something as simple as power getting weaker with cable distance would make me happy 02:17 hecks that reminds me, does stepping on a broken HV wire kill you in technic? 02:17 Xiong Well yes. I'm willing to accept simplification. Hey we do that IRL. 02:18 Xiong What? 02:18 hecks I want to fry mobs with electric fences :) 02:18 Xiong Look carefully. A cable end is itself insulated. 02:18 hecks ha 02:19 hecks What else... wind generator only looks at the presence of 10-ish nodes under itself, which may be underground for all it cares 02:19 Xiong Accept simplification. For playability and for a simulation that doesn't require a Cray. 02:19 hecks would it be that hard to actually check the surroundings 02:20 Xiong Okay yes. More details. I agree with your general drift, hecks. 02:20 hecks and I do believe I've done shenanigans with water turbines; flowing water is a thing, maybe the engine doesn't let us check for it but it should 02:21 Xiong The windmill is so silly it's disabled by default. 02:21 hecks speaking of water, a frameship emerging from water is a cool sight and actually looks like it should 02:22 hecks oh yeah, water, why doesn't water brick my electrical devices 02:22 Xiong The hydro is reasonable. Water doesn't really flow, after all. VanessaE recently fixed the adjacency issue. 02:23 Xiong Because they're insulated? 02:23 hecks Even when they're not, like bare mesecons? 02:23 hecks todo liquids overhaul 02:23 Xiong We already threw M under the bus. 02:24 hecks speaking of mesecons, I've been thinking of a cooler way to design electronics ingame, using inventory grids 02:24 Xiong Please. Details details. 02:25 Xiong I'm trying to tie all my musings together with the results of play. I mentioned a decision. 02:26 hecks Not much to talk about here; you'd use an inventory the way you place gates in the world with mesecons; you'd get a PCB node with the stuff in its metadata 02:27 Xiong Is the current state of technic so... jammed into a corner... that one must start over? Or can it be reworked? And recall I have issues with other elements of the stack. 02:28 hecks Yes, one must start over. But go down that road and you'll soon see that minetest game itself is broken, and you'll want to get rid of that as well. 02:29 hecks And then you'll be doing your thing from scratch, and you'll notice that the engine is pretty broken too 02:30 Xiong There comes a point in every longterm project when it resembles the end of a game of Jengo blocks... coated in library paste. More effort goes into keeping the thing from falling apart than into adding another block; and nobody wants to touch the melted semisolid goo in the center. 02:31 hecks Yup, but sooner or later it must be done; or else the competition will eat you 02:32 Xiong Now some guys have gotten their hands dirty with 5.0.0. It truly is a real basic improvement. 02:32 hecks Not really. 02:32 Xiong Hey. It runs on my phone now. 02:33 Xiong Who is the competition? 02:33 hecks Yes, it's all mobile phones and content databases now... 02:33 hecks meanwhile the engine is choking at every step and begging for mercy 02:34 hecks and the competition would be anyone doing a more modern voxel engine; if they provide a lua api that can potentially run mtg's mods, minetest is minetoast 02:35 Xiong If there's an API to a more serious language, burnt toast. 02:35 Xiong Although legacy support is always a sell. 02:36 Xiong The trouble with a new engine running legacy mods is, this cripples engine design. 02:36 hecks no, lua is fine, and legacy support is the only thing keeping minetest alive; and possibly the thing killing it 02:37 hecks Imagine trying to fix vectors in minetest now 02:37 hecks Technically a version bump to 5.0 warrants it perfectly, but try PRing that and see what happens 02:38 Xiong Well, let's agree to disagree on Lua. I'd rather use PHP... and that I do not like. 02:39 hecks A voxel engine running Mono would be somewhat scary for minetest 02:40 hecks even though lua is more than good enough for the task, some tech just sells better 02:41 Xiong Let's say that good engine design requires API support for multiple languages. The range of tasks addressed by mods is very broad. Lua for kid stuff, a serious interpreter for middle stuff, and some flavor of C for demanding stuff. 02:42 hecks luajit fits the "serious interpreter" slot just fine 02:43 hecks ffi works in mt, i've tried it 02:43 Xiong The point isn't which languages are supported but the API itself. If you model, say, water differently, the mod with the watermill breaks. 02:44 hecks The point would be to take over the users in one sweep; if the engine was better, forking the few incompatible mods wouldn't be a problem. 02:45 Xiong You see it as a hostile takeover? 02:45 hecks That could happen. 02:45 hecks All you'd need is a a lua lib that emulates core and minetest game. 02:46 Xiong In my mind, new users are going to be mobile users.Dunmo about overlap. 02:46 hecks If someone came and took the mobile users, that would be a net benefit for MT. 02:46 hecks At any rate, minetest is not in a good shape at the moment. 02:47 Xiong I'm not a hostile person. I'm not interested in burning MT to smell the napalm. 02:48 hecks Me neither. 02:50 Xiong Well, then there's really no need to plan to suck users away. I envision a new userbase. Um... could be money in it. But I won't tolerate the bloodsucking I see in big commercial efforts. 02:51 hecks Bloodsucking is already happening on the mobile side. Android port was a mistake. 02:51 Xiong Not sure I care too much to encourage dozens of crappy independent servers. Yes, stuff based on open source must be open source. But there's no need to foment the chaos. 02:52 Xiong Eh? 02:53 hecks I've heard of some sleazy forks of MT for android 02:54 Xiong I see a lot of obvious crap voxel games in Play Store. Are they all shitty hacks of MT? 02:54 hecks Many of them are 02:54 hecks and also off on a tangent; if MT didn't suck you'd have major issues with greedy servers 02:55 hecks releasing my subgame alone would trigger a torrent of terrible servers 02:56 Xiong My notion is to run a standard server and take in reasonable cash. Run a decent server costs money. So long as the good clean stuff is cheap, expensive crap can go hang. 02:59 Xiong Not to wander OT but by way of illustration: I've been playing Event Horizon for three years. It's freemium, no ads. There's no pressure to IAP; they're there if you wanna but the game is perfectly playable without. I've spent about $25 over those three years... and it's working. Development is steady and good. 03:01 Xiong Generally, when a major version rolls out, I buy a box of sth for $5, whether I want it or not, just to feed the dog. 03:02 Xiong This is sane and reasonable... and the dev has a player for life. 03:04 Xiong OTOH, I've occasionally dipped into the big commercial games when I had a few excess shekels. And after being fleeced out of $20 in a week, (a) never considered putting in another dime; and (b) soon quit. 03:06 Xiong The greedy model may make mire money, dunno. But it reeks and I want no part of it. 03:08 Xiong Anyway... running a standard server eases development considerably. Others can run servers if they like but if you can count on your environment, you're not chasing shadows. No obligation to fix every issue filed by a guy running a Commodore 64. 03:15 Xiong hecks, I see an issue with Mono. 03:18 hecks Oh, I didn't mean it as a suggestion. It's just that if someone wanted to make a popular voxel engine, they'd get a lot of modders with that. C# is kinda popular right now. 03:18 NaskitaSumber Hello 03:18 NaskitaSumber Heckss 03:19 NaskitaSumber tpr usus 03:19 NaskitaSumber Hello 03:21 Xiong hecks, is that what I think it is? 03:21 Guest39087 Hello 03:21 hecks Yes it is 03:21 Guest39087 Hello 03:21 Guest39087 I’ll change my username 03:22 rubenwardy Java > C# 03:24 _Mis_Nanina_ Hello 03:24 _Mis_Nanina_ Hello #minetest.Is anyone here? 03:24 Xiong Anything tainted by the dead hand of Redmond, I won't touch. 03:25 _Mis_Nanina_ Why.I gotta change my account to VeneziaT 03:31 NaskitaT__ Annacara? 03:40 Xiong Great. My IRC client just went over the falls in a barrel. 04:15 Xiong I believe I'm back. 04:16 cheapie Xiong: No, you're still not here :P 04:17 VanessaE no, you're over there ------> 04:18 Xiong Thanks, cheapie. I'll be sure to let me know that next time I run into me. If I do. 04:18 VanessaE just FYI, that NaskitaT__ person tried to log into my nickserv ID... 04:20 Xiong 12,99VanessaE99,99, being which was the primary cause of my panic, attempting to bulkhead my position... finding my client's dev took a powder (?)... and installing another client. 04:20 * Xiong exhausted 04:22 Xiong 12,99VanessaE99,99, what do you think about all of this? You and I talked, hecks and I talked. I've said more than enough. 04:23 VanessaE I have no opinion. 04:24 hecks I said mine too; write better mods 04:24 Xiong 9,99hecks99,99, I want to pick up that thread in a minnit. 04:26 Xiong 12,99VanessaE99,99,your opinion means much. If you no longer care what happens to MT, it's a giant redwood falling in the forest with everyone listening. 04:27 VanessaE it's not that. I just don't have any opinion. 04:28 Xiong I don't mean to be pushy. I'm an opinionated guy. I can't visualize not having one. 04:28 VanessaE think of it as being offered your favorite food but having no appetite. 04:30 Xiong hecks and I are similarly (if not identically) dissatisfied with the current state. No doubt, any change will annoy or inconvenience someone. I wouldn't like that to be you. 04:31 VanessaE that's just it 04:31 VanessaE the engine and community are ... kinda in upheaval right now 04:32 VanessaE I just don't have enough information to form an opinion. 04:32 Xiong hecks, you had much to say about the core... and I agree somewhat. Are you saying you're willing to work with it? 04:32 hecks Rephrase your question 04:33 Xiong Erk. Perhaps I can satisfy two ears with one word. 04:33 hecks I think the core is a big friggin' mess with a lot of potential, that mtg sucks because it's communist knockoff minecraft and minecraft was never good 04:33 Xiong 12,99VanessaE99,99, 9,99hecks99,99, the word is "mint". 04:34 VanessaE ... 04:34 hecks and I'm sticking around because I've sunk some time into this thing and there's no mature competitor around 04:35 hecks If something in the engine pisses me off enough, I'll try to fix it 04:35 Xiong I'm thinking about reworking MT more inline with user expectations... especially mobile users but still serving desktop/laptoppers. 04:35 hecks You don't need to, it's already like that 04:36 VanessaE ...and last time someone said they were gonna do that, it didn't end well. 04:36 Xiong I see issues drag on for months, years... suspended on legacy excuses. Time to fish or cut bait. 04:37 Xiong Dunno about last time. Tell me. 04:37 VanessaE no need. 04:38 Xiong Well, if there's any similarity and that thing went badly, I'd as soon not step in the same poo. 04:38 VanessaE suffice it to say every time someone decides MT is going the wrong direction, they fork it, try to develop, and the fork just dies off. a certain aged "programmer" with a fetish for the illegal is just the most recent example (and he doesn't even have a legit fork) 04:39 hecks Do you mean the guy who was sending the fake links? 04:39 VanessaE some that come to mind that just simply died off are voxelands, blockplanet, minetest++, ... 04:39 VanessaE I dunno about fake links, but that would fit his M-O. 04:40 VanessaE but that's offtopic. 04:40 Xiong Okay that comes back to the vibe 9,99hecks99,99 gave me. I don't think starting from scratch is wise; and forking core is too much work. 04:40 hecks I wouldn't try to fork core, I'd like it fixed 04:40 VanessaE Xiong: if you think MT needs work to that extent, open issues, make PRs, help the devs by testing existing PRs, etc. 04:41 Xiong I'm too old to think in terms of big projects. I like to think far ahead but get there in small stages. 04:42 VanessaE that doesn't mean you can open an issue for things like "this texture looks like ass" or "such-and-such modding API call is-ambiguous/needs-feature-foo/doesn't-work", etc etc 04:43 VanessaE can't* 04:43 Xiong 12,99VanessaE99,99, the general plan is to consolidate patches so "mint" isn't dependent on the whims of old dogs protecting their turf. I thought I aired this issue. 04:44 VanessaE don't. just don't. 04:44 VanessaE that's still an attempt to fork. 04:44 Xiong Oh yes. 04:44 VanessaE that's the very last thing minetest needs right now. 04:45 Xiong Just as you've forked a dozen mods and made them work together. 04:45 VanessaE that's a bit different. 04:45 VanessaE I actually haven't done that much to them 04:45 VanessaE and for the most part, any changes I've made, I've contributed upstream. 04:46 Xiong Well. If the dog won't eat the food, time to get a new dog. What else can be done? 04:46 VanessaE (not counting some stuff my modpack build script does to alter a few mods on-demand) 04:46 hecks If that's the last thing MT needs, then the core devs kinda need to loosen up a little if someone wants to do their job 04:47 VanessaE if the dog won't eat the food, you figure out why, and fix THAT issue (bitter? too sweet? he has bad teeth and can't chew? stomach upset?) 04:47 Xiong I agree that, in general, patches should always be offered upstream. 04:48 hecks the one time I tried PRing what was essentially a bugfix, the experience was less than stellar 04:49 Xiong But... the analogy wears thin. Obviously I've given up on the idea of persuading the old guard. I can continue to make PRs but I won't do the work unless I have a place to put it. 04:49 hecks That made me much less motivated to rebase that one, or contribute the things I've done since 04:49 Xiong 9,99hecks99,99++ 04:49 Xiong My thought exactly. 04:50 hecks to put it into perspective, the PR was in limbo for so long that now it needs a rebase 04:50 Xiong I'm too old to babysit grandpa. All my grandpas are dead. 04:51 kaeza ~karma hecks 04:51 ShadowBot kaeza: Karma for "hecks" has been increased 1 time and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 1. 04:51 hecks and it was in limbo because a certain core dev did not understand vector math or how CPUs work 04:51 hecks and because "oh no this will break compat in 0.1% of cases" even though 5.0 is for breaking 04:51 hecks "We're not paid for this shit" works both ways 04:52 Xiong Fine and decent to wheel the chair over to the window and leave a plate and a fork. He's gonna need to hire help if he needs spoonfeeding. 04:53 Xiong There I go into analogy again. Sorry! 04:54 hecks The application is not trivial to build, and enforces strict code guidelines which happen to be the exact opposite of my habits. It's also a mess. 04:55 VanessaE spotted the spaces-to-indent guy! :) 04:55 Xiong Plainly, I'm neither willing to sweettalk devs who snort at me like an admiral to a swabbie... nor wait for them to re-have the idea themselves and write their own fix. 04:55 hecks Nope, tabs 4 wide all day every day 04:55 hecks Having to put up with extra brueaucracy on top of this is very deflating 04:55 Xiong ? 04:56 hecks no, the difference is mt not spacing inside parentheses and using look_mom_im_a_hacker_case which infuriates me to no end 04:57 Xiong I'm agnostic about this stuff in a distributed dev community. You cab run it all through a prettyprinter. 04:57 hecks which takes less time than telling someone to fix it 04:57 Xiong Me, I dislike CaMelS. 04:58 hecks not a dealbreaker for me but please don't add more crap on top 04:58 Xiong ? 04:59 Xiong I say one underbar in an identifier is fine; two maybe okay. Three is a sign you've lost your scope... or fear to do so. 05:00 hecks I mean about code style, and bad code; I can deal with it as long as I'm not being interrogated over a few float muls like it's 1992 05:00 Xiong Well there ya go. 05:01 hecks My back can only take so many straws 05:01 Xiong And... me too. 05:01 GreenDimond Ha 05:01 GreenDimond its funny because we're talking about code style 05:01 GreenDimond camel case ;p 05:01 GreenDimond what an unintentional pun 05:02 GreenDimond Ill show myself out 05:02 hecks I considered writing MyBack but that would be just horrible 05:02 GreenDimond myBack 05:02 hecks oh whatever 05:02 GreenDimond camel case that LooksLikeThis is so much worseThanThis 05:03 hecks for me it's TypeAndFunction, variableAndField, look_mom_im_a_hacker, _PLEASE_KILL_ME 05:03 Xiong They don't get paid to maintain. I don't get paid to test, fix, test (rinse repeat), submit PR. I'm not hostile; I'd rather walk from the fight. 05:04 GreenDimond _ is only valid in some cases 05:04 GreenDimond usually like __this 05:04 VanessaE hecks: you forgot one: aLLMyVoWeLSaReSMaLL 05:04 hecks no VanessaE, I forgot sz_ShittyMicrosoftCode 05:05 hecks or actually lpsz_YouKnowWhatIMean 05:05 GreenDimond butHaveYou_seenThis 05:05 hecks if I have, it must've been winapi too 05:05 GreenDimond camel_Score 05:05 GreenDimond oh god what have I done 05:05 Xiong Oh yes, warts! These are ungood. Another reason to favor languages with type sigils. 05:05 hecks you've done perfectly normal javascript code 05:07 Xiong Now all this casing is squeezing another shaggy dog from me. 05:09 Xiong Perl has a good test harness, with an ok() you can call if the test should succeed and even not_ok() if it should fail. 05:10 hecks Lua's error is good enough since Importing Is Execution in lua 05:11 Xiong A perler sent me his test script (to instruct me in the Right Stuff)... in which he defined his own calls directly to the harness, overriding ok() and its many flexible friends. He named these ok(), OK(), and Ok(). 05:12 hecks I can imagine this is perfectly normal to a perler 05:12 Xiong Okay? 05:13 hecks After all, perl's entire purpose is to interpret any gibberish as a valid program 05:17 Xiong Nobody should commit such stuff to a disk file. I appreciate flexibility when it stays in the buffer. 05:18 hecks what if it's a ramdisk 05:20 Xiong So much for the new client. :( 05:22 Xiong So yeh haha but I jyst want to mine, process, and build without my environment ripping open its belly to strangle me with its fecal spaghetti. 05:27 Xiong So 12,99VanessaE99,99 you have put your finger on the hinge point. MT devs, at least in core and technic, seem neither to want to fix long-standing issues nor accept NIH fixes. We can PR all day but I see no alternative to a fork. And you're very right that this is a step usually regretted. What solution don't I see? (It's easy for me to not see.) 05:40 hecks forking or replacing a mod is not a big deal, for your kind of problems, just making the mods you want would be enough 05:41 hecks a better tech mod would be very welcome and mtg mods are pretty trivial to make (but hard to maintain) 06:12 Wikiwide Horses (see whinny? ) spawn where grass is. Where do other animals spawn? 06:18 Sveta I'd like to check the source, but I can't find it in a web page 06:22 Wikiwide And does Minetest by default include rabbits, or is there a mod for that? 06:25 Emerald2 I think I've seen rabbits before, from a mod. 06:25 Emerald2 Oh yeah and we used to feed them lava orbs and they'd turn homicidal. :D 06:26 Wikiwide Did they get red eyes and sharp horn, as well? ;-) 06:26 GreenDimond Red eyes, yes 06:26 GreenDimond and sharp pointeh teeth 06:27 Emerald2 Do you remember which mod that was, GD? 06:28 GreenDimond mobs_animal 06:31 Wikiwide Black bunny? ;-) Or Al-mi'raj? 06:34 Wikiwide Where do the rabbits spawn?.. I think there is mobs_animal installed already, but need to check. 06:37 Emerald2 afaik rabbits spawn on grass along with sheep, cows and horses. Boars in savannah. 06:38 Wikiwide Any special conditions?.. Need to check whether mobs_animal is installed. 07:20 Xiong Yes 9,99hecks99,99; modding is the thin edge of the wedge: the thinnest is patching existing mods. I'd like to talk about replacing some... I'm a big believer in collaboration as a counterweight to ego. And yes that's where to start. 07:22 Xiong I also believe in planning ahead... maybe overplanning: always a risk. I think it's wise to sketch out the way ahead. Better than going full speed into a dead end. 07:23 Xiong For instance, I need to see what digilines can do, how much of it overlaps mesecons. 07:26 Xiong For another, check Joe's TechPack: https://github.com/joe7575/techpack/wiki and https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=19784 07:27 Xiong Looked good at first but it's very rough. I still wonder if it might be a better jumping-off point. Haven't been able to make it run yet! 07:30 Emerald2 Wikiwide, I don't think so? 08:39 Xiong ? 08:41 Xiong I remember the cute lil bunnies... tasty eating. I want to say dirt-with-grass also. Not as common as sheep. 09:11 Xiong Okay, I guess I know one reason I ignored digilines before; it deps on mesecons. So definitely not a replacement. 09:14 Xiong I have yet to figure out a general, reliable rule for attaching two nodes with mesecons. Technic can be a bit funky but it's just a matter of learning which faces contain dummy ports, which pipeworks, and which cable ports. That can be fixed with better textures. 09:14 Xiong Ah well. 15:13 Elon_Satoshi hello! 15:13 Elon_Satoshi I just noticed that carbone NG hasn't been changed since 2015 :/ 15:30 JDCodeIt Hi All, I wondered if there was a plan to create some utility function in the system - like vector extras, but including some missing lua functions - e.g. deep copy of a table with metadata 15:32 JDCodeIt I see a lot of modders copying big blocks of code with def's and just changing a few entries to make a subtle change, but this could be a lot less code with deep copy, and easier to maintain 16:04 MinetestBot 02[git] 04SmallJoker -> 03minetest/minetest: Slippery: Do not apply when swimming (#8198) 13ba5a9f2 https://git.io/fhHp5 (152019-02-10T16:04:04Z) 16:06 adventure https://github.com/minetest/minetestmapper/issues/71 ... wondering if anyone knows what my problem is. 16:07 sfan5 sounds like a bug in the postgres backend 16:18 adventure I've added a comment with a backtrace obtained by running under gdb and then interrupting before the program crashes. 16:34 adventure Running this command: "SELECT posX, posY, posZ FROM blocks;" in the psql prompt uses 51% memory and crashes as well. Looking in the SQLite implementation, this command seems to have some limiting on it? I'm not very familiar with SQL. 16:34 adventure (I'm trying to test the indivual database commands from psql to see if they work or not.) 16:35 sfan5 maybe psql just stores whatever data is asked for way too inefficiently 16:39 adventure I don't think the data is ever getting to psql or minetestmapper. The function DBPostgreSQL::execPrepared isn't returning to caller. I'm pretty sure the problem could be the statement itself, just based on my limited knowledge. 17:22 adventure Just found https://github.com/adrido/minetest-mapper-cpp ... "Optionally, avoid reading the block list from the database (dramatically speeds up generating maps of small parts of large worlds)" ... here's hoping it works. 17:58 argyle77 Hi! If there are errors or omissions in the minetest developers wiki, is it possible for me to edit it? 18:12 Krock ... don't leave man 19:30 MinetestBot paramat: Feb-10 14:10 UTC <Fixer> does that grass grow in snowy forest beaches? https://i.imgur.com/tZcQ8rn.png 19:30 MinetestBot paramat: Feb-10 14:11 UTC <Fixer> another screen https://i.imgur.com/2yJAymn.png 19:30 MinetestBot paramat: Feb-10 14:12 UTC <Fixer> coords of v7 location https://i.imgur.com/vm997qG.png 20:20 paramat !tell hecks your PR is delayed due to lack of core dev time and feature freeze, not because of my review, i've had no objections to it since 25 sept. you're making an excessive fuss about it, it's normal for core devs to have issues with a contribution and other core devs will do this too, so please don't focus on me, please? =) 20:20 MinetestBot paramat: yeah, yeah 20:23 rubenwardy ~karma Ruslan1 20:23 ShadowBot rubenwardy: Ruslan1 has neutral karma. 20:23 rubenwardy ... 20:23 rubenwardy ~karma rubenwardy 20:23 ShadowBot rubenwardy: Karma for "rubenwardy" has been increased 2 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 2. 21:34 entuland noice 21:34 entuland ~karma entuland 21:34 ShadowBot entuland: entuland has neutral karma. 21:39 MinetestBot 02[git] 04paramat -> 03minetest/minetest_game: Beds: Do not require red wool to craft beds 137f68777 https://git.io/fhQfE (152019-02-10T21:38:58Z) 22:37 kaeza Remind me, is there an option to show the crosshair on Android? 22:38 cheapie Not sure if there are any mesecons devs in here, but the ltc4000e does a similar thing to the new "lightweight interrupts" (that is, it uses node timers to time things in an emulated Luacontroller) but supports multiple interrupts being set at once. My code is here if anyone wants to look at it and/or try to integrate something like it into mesecons: https://cheapiesystems.com/git/ltc4000e/tree/init.lua#n233 22:39 cheapie To put it simply, I shove all the pending interrupts into the node metadata, and then set a node timer for when the next one should fire. 22:39 Ruslan1 Am I doing anything wrong 22:41 GreenDimond No, Ruslan1, someone was just checking peoples' karma is all. 22:41 GreenDimond kaeza: Not in 0.4.17.2, 5.0.0 should though. 22:43 Ruslan1 Ok 23:03 MinetestBot 02[git] 04SmallJoker -> 03minetest/minetest: Consistent HP and damage types (#8167) 13ffb17f1 https://git.io/fhQJh (152019-02-10T23:03:26Z) 23:04 kaeza GreenDimond: cannot find anything in this build (stu's latest, 3fce27e). 23:09 GreenDimond kaeza: You're right. The PR wasnt merged and was removed from the 5.0.0 milestones recently. 23:09 kaeza :/ 23:10 kaeza Thanks anyway. 23:14 kaeza GreenDimond: can you link to the issue? 23:14 kaeza Er, PR. 23:14 GreenDimond https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/7865 23:20 kaeza Thanks again.