Time Nick Message 00:05 Blockhead256 bastrabun: Screenshots uploaded to discord will paste a link to IRC that contains a token that will expire in 24h or less. 00:05 Blockhead256 so whoever reads the conversation any later than that, say on the logs website, will not be able to see the screenshot, since they aren't usng Discord to fetch a new token 00:06 Blockhead256 much better to use an external image host 00:06 MTDiscord alternatively a bot could just curl/wget/etc the image 00:06 Blockhead256 and put it on the logs website? 00:07 MTDiscord Another case where I'd love to have some reasonablly working forum 00:07 MTDiscord sure, or paste the new image link, etc 00:08 Blockhead256 bastrabun: What's unreasonable about the forum? Works fine for me 00:08 cheapie Down most of the time, slow when it's not 00:09 MTDiscord We're talking about the minetest forum, right? 00:09 MTDiscord Is there another? 00:09 MTDiscord 50 errors my old friend* 00:09 Blockhead256 I don't think youse have used the Luanti forums recently, it's not as bad as it was. Still kinda slow 00:09 MTDiscord well, c55 potato has one less site to run now. soon 2 hopefully 00:10 MTDiscord Yes, ofc, I force myself to check at least once in a while and regret immediately afterwards 00:10 Blockhead256 I suppose the way I use it is still not in touch really... I multithread all the posts I'm opening so by the time I click the last link, it's finished loading the first 00:11 MTDiscord same, its the only way i stay somewhat sane 00:12 Blockhead256 well anyway, "Post your screenshots!" et cetera do remain an option.. you tradeoff speed for not posting to something commercial like Imgur or unaffiliated (and sometimes blocked) like catbox 00:12 MTDiscord Yeah, same. I click all of those that are new and I want to see, then do something else for a while, then return to view. 00:15 freq Your Land 00:15 MTDiscord Can't be that hard to set up an image host oneself 00:15 Blockhead256 pffft 00:15 Blockhead256 bastrabun: setting up isn't the hard part, it's making sure it doesn't disappear into the void! 00:15 stephan48 having the bot reprocess(i.e. download and offer) images is a liability, since you can't trust what people will link, you might inadvertently host material you should not. better not :) 00:16 stephan48 should not=which might require administrative action or could make you liable for distribution 00:17 MTDiscord i mean, i could say some vile stuff that might not be allowed in some country, say germany for example. 00:17 MTDiscord purely in text 00:18 stephan48 yes but in this case the bridge op can claim, we only forward we don't log, wsor is now blocked forever. if you store logs somewhere publicly oh well ;) 00:18 MTDiscord That's usually the moment in the discussion where I look at how other projects do it. The 0ad people have a fairly modern and fast forum, the beyond all reasons people appear to be on discord mainly ... hm. 00:18 MTDiscord (this channel is logged btw) 00:18 stephan48 i know :P 00:19 MTDiscord Doesn't help if the images disappear 00:20 Blockhead256 let me level: I don't trust any community that's mostly on discord 00:20 stephan48 if you store images/files someone can easily make you guilty of possession of some materials if they want, which often causes quite a heavier fine then someone being a bit dumb and saying stuff they should not in text. 00:20 stephan48 Blockhead256++ 00:20 stephan48 :P 00:20 stephan48 sorry you discord people 00:21 stephan48 easiest way is really to let people bring their own image host(imgur whatever) and outsource the policing and liability problem beyond "i might need to scrub logs" 00:21 stephan48 which sucks to some degree 00:22 Blockhead256 of course, matrix is inadequate for a lot of people. But, that's common in the libreverse (sure that can be a word) 00:22 stephan48 dooont get me started on matrix please 00:22 ireallyhateirc linkrot is cool though, people don't need to know what the conversation was about 10 days in the future 00:22 MTDiscord to be fair, i do have some concern with all the legal mess happening for the internet that could lead to only large corperate interests on it since they can absorb hits 00:22 stephan48 discord is bad enough as it is but atleast it does not silently drop group chat messages. 00:23 MTDiscord Unfortunately I can't do that. I'm hell-bent on trying to host everything I can myself. Which happens to be how my villain origin story in minetest started 00:23 stephan48 wsor, sadly thats the issue, people are idiots and while 99% behave, it just needs one bad egg to fuckup the person who spends their hard earned free time providing all the nice infra 00:23 MTDiscord hot take to the people on the irc side, discord exists and is popular because irc didnt keep up an actively fought/fights progress 00:23 stephan48 and burn them out 00:24 stephan48 how to compete with a multi billion dollar marketing campaign? :P 00:24 MTDiscord irc used to be the defacto chat on the internet, now discord, facebook messenger, telegram, etc are in that role 00:24 Blockhead256 "yeah we know IRC sucks" -- active IRC user 00:24 Blockhead256 cool so the status quo will prevail I assume 00:25 MTDiscord better ethics is not a feature. open stuff can only compete if its better. 00:25 stephan48 its nice how people compare IRC - a system mainly driven by singular people driving open source projects forwards for decades to something like Discord which are so immensly funded with devs that they can implement almost anything in a few days(if agile would not be a blocker) 00:25 MTDiscord obligatory https://xkcd.com/1782/ btw 00:25 MTDiscord coughs in ircv3 and freenode/libera refusal to implement it fully 00:26 ireallyhateirc bastrabun, ethics is a feature, most people simply ignore it though and succumb to megacorporations 00:27 ireallyhateirc "I have nothing to hide" and other such dystopian mantras 00:27 Blockhead256 I really didn't want to start another platform debate... 00:27 MTDiscord If ethics is a feature for you, then its a feature for you. Only the majority doesn't care. If I could host discord myself, I'd do so. I can't, so I gotta learn hosting matrix 00:27 MTDiscord Blockhead: It distracted nicely from the forum debate 😛 00:27 MTDiscord i do need to try revolt or whatever it is at some point. see how it compares to matrix 00:28 MTDiscord matrix is just discord at home tbh 00:28 stephan48 welllll 00:28 stephan48 how about tmux to run weechat and irssi - the latter being a kind of bouncer for weechat? 00:28 stephan48 i even just switched to weechat for weechat android! 00:28 stephan48 (althrough i jumped from screen to tmux 5 years ago) 00:28 stephan48 would discord provide a unified server view across all servers i would probably look at it more favoreably but this server switching is what kills me UX whise. 00:28 stephan48 (not that matrix did this in any kind or shape better) 00:28 ireallyhateirc lol 00:29 stephan48 wellllllll thank you ShadowBot 00:29 Blockhead256 bahaha, your fingers are just too fast 00:29 stephan48 @bastrabun, have fun and enjoy the pain when matrix.org silently rejects messages from your users :P 00:30 Blockhead256 I'm lazy, I had a bouncer/logger once but it went down after a few weeks from a dc. I just have the IRC log website on my firefox new tab page 00:30 MTDiscord You're not telling me matrix isn't all paradise, rainbow and unicorns? Noooo! 00:30 Blockhead256 > (not that matrix did this in any kind or shape better) 00:30 Blockhead256 the (hypothetically) neat part with matrix is you have a choice of clients 00:31 stephan48 yes so i found out 00:31 stephan48 all suck 00:31 stephan48 yes i should not complain when i am not willing to fix, but i want a messenger dammit. 00:31 stephan48 not another life long project 00:32 MTDiscord I got an idea! We could make a protocol that unites them all! (waits for the approrpiate xkcd) 00:32 stephan48 Standards! 00:32 Blockhead256 anyway played any good Luanti games or mods lately? 00:33 MTDiscord https://xkcd.com/927/ 00:33 stephan48 872? 972! 00:33 MTDiscord thankyou 00:33 stephan48 welll off by one and slightly different order 00:34 stephan48 my xkcd numbers got a bit rusty 00:34 MTDiscord blockhead: i3, xdecor, morelights, dreambuilder hotbar - probably some of most most prefered and well designed/built/whatever mods 00:34 MTDiscord waits for the big endian VS little endian joke 00:35 MTDiscord from a user point of view 00:35 stephan48 we recently had that issue in #icecast, with embarresment we found we never compiled for a big endian system. stuff went foobar. 00:35 stephan48 debian's packaging out of all the things did catch that 00:36 Blockhead256 what's the deal with long hotbars? I wouldn't ever use one longer than 12, and even then, that's past where my left hand is ever going. 00:36 Blockhead256 mouse scrolling hotbar selection.... ehhhh.... 00:38 MTDiscord We're using a 16 hotbar by default 00:39 Blockhead256 you must either have a keyboard with 16 keys on the number row, use the F-keys or spare keys on the main letter blocks, .... or for some reason you're scrolling your mousewheel around a lot 01:26 [ what's wrong with mouse scrolling hotbar selection? 01:26 [ it's fine with a real scrollwheel (but is harder to use with a touchpad or trackpoint) 01:27 Blockhead256 it's really slow compared to hitting numbers, especially numbers 1-6 01:27 Blockhead256 it would be better to have some system like factorio for easily swapping hotbars around than to make one huge one 01:28 Blockhead256 my personal preference: numbers 1-6, then Shift+1-6 for the next 6 slots, then Ctrl+ to switch hotbars 01:29 Blockhead256 But I suppose at least wide hotbars work right now, against my hypothetical. Luanti's control scheme really could use some work... 01:30 Blockhead256 Minetest Game's inventory is only 32 slots, so you'd only need 2 hotbars as well 01:32 MTDiscord I made a mod for myself to help when building that has an infinite inventory (expands when adding items) and a 16-wide hotbar with items (buttons) at each end to scroll through the inventory. Really handy, even if its not perfect yet. 01:32 Blockhead256 intriguing. Definitely not the approach I'd use, but interesting 01:33 Blockhead256 as a vim user I really think more programs need to embrace modality/prefix type shortcuts. Like if you could hit tilde or something and within 5 keystrokes get almost any registered item 01:35 Blockhead256 first keypress would open the selection UI, then each subsequent one navigates the UI with all the letters and numerals exposed as categories, subcategories, until you get to an actual item 01:36 Blockhead256 the navigation key sequences could be automatically arranged, hopefully with a deterministic algorithm 01:36 Blockhead256 if any of you have used vimperator or tridactyl, you'll have an idea of what I mean 01:37 Blockhead256 unfortunately, I don't think formspec can response to single keypresses, even with some hack like focusing a textbox, I don't think the client can be made to force-submit the form 02:09 MTDiscord I had a similar idea for a bigger hotbar, in the editor for Klots. I made the hotbar 10 wide, since that's how many hotkeys I have for the slots ... and then I added a "tap aux" input to swap the hotbar with the row directly under it, so you can "bank swap" and effectively have a hotbar that's 20 wide, with up to 2 keystrokes to reach any slot. 02:15 Blockhead256 fun fact: Luanti actually has 32 keybindings for hotbar slots 02:20 MTDiscord less fun fact: I only know 10 of them 02:38 Blockhead256 well, the other 22 aren't bound by default. First you'd have to find 22 free keys to use! 03:10 MTDiscord random aside, someone mentioned GitHub being slow recently, I think they bungled the rollout of Issues 2.0 and I've been seeing issues ever since. Today I got my first unexpected error! 03:10 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1333635322105565185/image.png?ex=67999c2e&is=67984aae&hm=7d6e3abd35ae75cbeee66d1ed6557613ae287cc6be9ba33a69514fd48bee4279& 03:13 MTDiscord https://github.blog/changelog/2025-01-13-evolving-github-issues-public-preview/ it is opt-out if it becomes a significant concern 15:44 emorrp1-irc heya folks, fwiw I've finished my review of the mods packaged in debian and 17 of them needed changing https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-games/2025/01/msg00006.html 15:44 MTDiscord The fact that debian is packaging mods at all is a problem... 15:45 MTDiscord It might have made sense 5 years ago when Luanti had no built-in content distribution, but that's like nearly 2 whole debian releases ago... 15:45 emorrp1-irc Warr1024: obviously we're gonna have to agree to disagree there, see the quote in the email for an example where contentdb isn't sufficient 15:46 MTDiscord Lol, no thanks, you can agree to disagree if you want but I'm not interested. 15:47 emorrp1-irc 👍️ 15:47 MTDiscord That argument about not being able to access the internet breaks the Debian package manager just the same as the Luanti one 15:48 MTDiscord In any event, if Debian has decided to take on package management of a software ecosystem in a way that's at odds with that ecosystem's standard distribution practices, then it's also responsible for however that breaks... 16:04 MTDiscord If external package managers really want to package Luanti content, it would probably actually be a good idea for them to source them from ContentDB to begin with. As long as they don't just leave versions frozen perpetually and actually periodically check for updates, it should be fine. But there are also a LOT of packages in CDB and it could easily be overwhelming... 16:05 MTDiscord External package managers will have to work to avoid becoming museums of historically interesting mods rather than actually useful-today packages. 16:20 MTDiscord Could we make deb packages from CDB releases automaatically? 16:21 MTDiscord I really don't think that is a job for the Luanti community. Frankly I don't know if it's worthwhile at all. 16:24 MTDiscord If the Debian community thinks there is tremendous value in having mods be Debian packages, they're free to throw their time at it, but it's definitely not something that "has" to be done and probably creates more problems than it solves. 16:30 emorrp1-irc luatic: agreed 16:33 emorrp1-irc it gets more interesting when we have enough to make a larger game like voxelibre Just Work with an apt install, like erle wants to do 16:34 emorrp1-irc bastrabun: probably, or at least a faster way to import mods to start with, most of the debian packaging can be templated (we've discussed a cdb2deb tool) 16:34 emorrp1-irc but it still needs to go through human review to e.g. flag any hidden copyright issues (though I'm told contentdb is good at this too) 16:35 emorrp1-irc and make them work with each other, rather than everyone forking for minor changes 16:36 pgimeno IMO game packages make much more sense than mod packages 16:38 emorrp1-irc one tends to need the other first... :) 16:41 MTDiscord I believe it should be possible to "pin" a debian package to a specific release from CDB. CDB authors can delete old releases, but I don't think that it's possible for them to modify or substitute them or anything. That means that people can manually review packages and then pin that version until another manual review. The prospect of CDB removing old releases is nothing you wouldn't experience from other package managers that can have 16:41 MTDiscord similar issues (or even get 451'd even if they don't expire versions) 16:45 MTDiscord > contentdb isn't sufficient i fail to see this 16:46 MTDiscord if your talking about the prision thing, then just bundle a zip of all cdb downloads when you send it in or something 16:47 MTDiscord > The fact that debian is packaging mods at all is a problem... but yeah, by far agree with this 16:49 emorrp1-irc well it makes us happy :) 16:51 MTDiscord the reality is Debian fails to keep anything up to date, and ships out of date stuff all the time, this will be an issue if users install an out of date package from Debian, and then a mod from cdb that depends on that mod with a more modern version. the user will then be required to clear out the Debian version to get the right version. vs if they install from cdb, they get both of the correct versions (yes, there is the whole versioning 16:51 MTDiscord of mods debate which relates to the github issue, etc) 16:51 sfan5 the main menu could probably handle it better if you have a mod installed but it's non-updateable 16:52 MTDiscord but then again, doesnt change much in just recommending to completely use cdb/use ppa or flatpack for an up to date version of luanti 16:55 MTDiscord re licensing, if Debian is shiping and ancient enough version of minetest game, the water texture is copyrighted. might have been sound licensing issues in mtg? not sure if that was mtg or a mod soup 16:56 sfan5 for reference 17:05 pgimeno " one tends to need the other first... :)" I think the problem is the lack of game-local mods. Different mods with the same name in different games shouldn't be an issue (in particular, different versions of the same mod). 17:07 ireallyhateirc isn't there any package-manager-agnostic software packing format what would allow for easy imports? 17:15 MTDiscord "package-manager-agnostic software packing format" ... sounds like tarballs or zip files. 17:16 emorrp1-irc ... which are available from contentdb 17:16 MTDiscord yep 17:16 MTDiscord I'm actually kind of curious about what kind of use-cases luanti has in prisons. Like, is it just entertainment to help pass the time, or are there like educational uses or something? 17:17 MTDiscord Is it just a matter of making free software available in prisons on the principle that free software should be available everywhere, or are there like prison-specific needs that it serves? 17:18 MTDiscord cdb doesnt do tarballs, just zips iirc? 17:20 MTDiscord Yeah, though there's not a ton of difference between them from luanti's perspective. We don't rely on permissions stuff like the execute bit that zip doesn't have, and while the "solid" compression of tarballs is nice (and we don't take advantage of the individual file access that zips offer) I don't think the difference between them is actually important in most cases. 17:20 emorrp1-irc I'm not entirely sure, I assumed from the comment that it was entertainment, minetest isn't the only feature https://github.com/cyberitsolutions/bootstrap2020/blob/main/NEWS.rst#changes-in-soes-september-2023-since-august-2023 17:21 MTDiscord I have suggested that CDB offer solid archive format options (would require client support) to make it possible to shrink downloads, though it's not a high priority. You can actually hack it with the zip format by just putting a no-compression zip inside a high-compression zip. 17:21 MTDiscord luanti now has ztsd, i wonder if cdb where to ztsd compress packages if it would yield disk savings 17:21 MTDiscord zips on the fly for older clients 17:22 emorrp1-irc ireallyhateirc: appstream would be good for all the metadata, IIRC it's the same as used by flatpak, but other sources can use the same data too 17:22 MTDiscord as far as I know, the luanti ecosystem understands zlib (and thus could do .z and .gz), zstd, and zip. What it lacks is tar. You can do .zip.zstd, and get decent compression that way, it's just ... awkward. I think zip directory metadata may be at the end so you can't easily "stream" decompression, and you have to be careful to disable compression on "inner" archives to avoid defeating the outer compressor. 17:23 emorrp1-irc https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/blob/master/misc/net.minetest.minetest.metainfo.xml if you're unfamiliar 17:23 MTDiscord The tar format has all this metadata that's not relevant to luanti packages, but then again, zip has its fair share of that too. 17:24 MTDiscord can xml just die already? 17:25 MTDiscord warr: yeah, was mostly just thinking out loud since cdb is getting big, save ruben some disk if possible 17:25 emorrp1-irc wsor4035: there's a YAML variant 17:26 emorrp1-irc but the appstream folks prefer xml 17:26 MTDiscord ill see you in norway :p 17:26 MTDiscord running go version 1.20 17:27 MTDiscord to bad there isnt json at least 17:27 MTDiscord https://github.com/luanti-org/contentdb/issues/496 17:28 MTDiscord ah 17:28 MTDiscord anyone make the relevant engine issue or naw? 17:28 MTDiscord good question. I don't remember doing so myself, but even that, I'm unsure of. 17:29 MTDiscord if i recall maybe ill dig around tonight and see, else 🤷 17:29 MTDiscord dont off the top of my head remember seeing one in the engine tracker 17:29 MTDiscord Personally I'm pretty torn between .zip.gz and .tar.gz; I think each of them has different challenges. .zip.gz is easier to accidentally misuse and get bad results. .tar.gz would be harder to get merged due to the potential need for more dependencies. 17:31 MTDiscord I'm uncertain whether there's a "streaming" workflow for .zip.gz or whether it requires the thing to be "spooled" somewhere. It might not be an issue though if the objective is JUST to unpack it onto disk, i.e. we expect the necessary storage to be available already. 17:31 MTDiscord the web prefers Brotli, with fallback to gzip. chrome added support for ztsd and some sites/cdns (including cloudflare?) are starting to prefer ztsd 17:32 MTDiscord > One of the most exciting recent developments in web performance is Zstandard (zstd) — a new compression algorithm that we have found compresses data 42% faster than Brotli while maintaining almost the same compression levels. Not only that, but Zstandard reduces file sizes by 11.3% compared to GZIP, all while maintaining comparable speeds. https://blog.cloudflare.com/new-standards/ 17:33 MTDiscord The difference between compression algorithms isn't as big of a deal as the difference between solid and non-solid archives. The fact that it's possible to order files and take advantage of repetition between them is what nets you most of the savings from the proposal. 17:34 MTDiscord yeah, different content types 17:38 ireallyhateirc Guix has an importer for CDB packages but the set of packages is small and outdated. Such importers still need plenty of manual cleanup. 17:39 ireallyhateirc I think about just sending them a PR that would remove the outdated packages 17:45 MTDiscord vo 17:52 MTDiscord I'd think that if your objective is to bundle software to be deployed in an environment that won't have unfettered access to the internet for updates, just making a "deb soup" wouldn't be sufficient anyway; you'd probably want something more like a disk image where you can bundle configuration as well ... and in that situation, including packages installed via non-system package managers would make more sense rather than trying to convert 17:52 MTDiscord them to system packages. 17:53 MTDiscord I mean, Debian kinda "needs" flatpaks to be useful as a general-purpose "desktop" system already 😅 17:54 ireallyhateirc but at least bugs can be exploited in a stable and reproducible manner 18:00 MTDiscord At the cost of not having access to all the hottest NEW bugs, yeah. 22:01 ireallyhateirc I brought back to life this thing https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/pull/15730 now looking for some brave devs to review :) 22:02 ireallyhateirc it appears that the original author did a really good job to make this work, then disappeared and left some trivial issues unfixed