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| 08:57 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> Hi. Since I wanted to push forward the migration discussion, yesterday I took the initiative to gather some people (Codeberg staff member + a few core devs + a few community members) in a private room on Matrix and sent an e-mail to celeron to understand how to actually try a smooth migration process, starting from this suggestion by wsor: https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/issues/12324 |
| 08:57 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> I thought that having those people gathered in the same room would have moved things forward but I realise it would have been nicer to ask in here what's the general opinion about that suggestion before doing anything; so I'm really sorry for that. I can add it as a point of the next meeting if it can help. That being said, no matter the strategy involved, Codeberg staff member asked if anyone else wants to be involved in the hypothetica |
| 09:01 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> I also know that a community member started experimenting with a self-hosted Forgejo instance as soon as the private room started, so I think we should give more trust to our community in general |
| 09:19 |
celeron55 |
i still believe there will be a day when github becomes functionally worse than codeberg (or some other FOSS alternative), and it looks to me like we haven't reached that day yet |
| 09:19 |
celeron55 |
are you saying moving luanti onto codeberg would make a material difference in the speed codeberg can improve and that would be the reason to move? or what's the point in discussing with codeberg staff? |
| 09:21 |
celeron55 |
and yes, this should be discussed in public |
| 09:27 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> celeron55: the point in discussing with codeberg staff is having someone who knows the tool better than we do, so as to provide support |
| 09:31 |
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| 09:33 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> I don't think it's fair to talk about functionalities only, though. Without even going into politics, there are community members that don't take part in the development for the sole reason we're on GitHub. Of course I can't say if they will actually contribute after the migration or if they are all talk, but it's something we should keep in mind. Also, contributors like repetitivestrain ask other people to open PRs for them, see #16397 |
| 09:33 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/issues/16397 -- Permit invoking core.generate_decorations so as to generate biomes respecting the biome map by corarona |
| 09:48 |
repetitivestrain |
i would be willing to use codeberg, yes |
| 09:49 |
celeron55 |
i'm sure there are at least as many people who won't contribute on codeberg and will on github |
| 09:49 |
celeron55 |
it's a moot point |
| 09:50 |
celeron55 |
we must refuse to be controlled by emotions in this matter and just go by hard facts |
| 09:50 |
celeron55 |
if there are no facts to go by, then we make no move |
| 10:00 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> Fair, then let me go into politics. What about "Adding support for an LLM explicitly rooting for neonazism, made by a neonazist" and "company actively allowing to accelerate a genocide"? Or, for something lighter, "forced to feed an LLM with our code, that will clearly use it not to do good in this world according to the company's history" |
| 10:01 |
celeron55 |
the relevant thing to do is to maintain a benchmark between github and codeberg so that we can reliably know when the move won't cause technical difficulties (like problems hosting CI or the websites, which I imagine being some of the hardest parts) |
| 10:02 |
celeron55 |
the code will be available to LLMs anyway as it's a public project. I don't think it's possible to succeeed in fighting against that (and I don't know what the benefit would be in the end anyway) |
| 10:04 |
celeron55 |
if codeberg is really marketing itself as a tool against LLMs, I'm not sure what to even think about that. it seems emotional, unrealistic and weird |
| 10:05 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> They're using Anubis. As far as I know, the goal of that tool is to prevent scrapers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis_(software) |
| 10:08 |
celeron55 |
yeah but luanti's code will be mirrored in a hundred places anyway. anubis is more of a load shedding tool rather than a data distribution control tool. it does not make sense to try to keep your data away from LLMs, they are so prevalent now, you're wasting effort |
| 10:09 |
celeron55 |
and regulation isn't going into a direction where LLMs would become more illegal or limited in the future |
| 10:10 |
celeron55 |
i'm not sure whether to think of it as the doom of everything or just a different way of doing things, but it appears unstoppable |
| 10:11 |
celeron55 |
what other arguments do you have for codeberg? |
| 10:12 |
celeron55 |
i should point out i myself am all for codeberg, but my timeline is very different compared to yours |
| 10:12 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> You've skipped two arguments |
| 10:14 |
celeron55 |
i fail to see them |
| 10:14 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> I guess the question is: how much evil are we supposed to tolerate before saying "ok, this is too much"? |
| 10:15 |
celeron55 |
if you/we can organize a mass exodus from github, big enough to gain reasonable media attention, then i'm more interested |
| 10:15 |
celeron55 |
just making luanti disappear into codeberg is not helpful |
| 10:15 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> it's hard enough to migrate one single project, I'd like to keep some love for myself :P |
| 10:16 |
celeron55 |
i believe such will happen one day, and i'm all for boosting it |
| 10:16 |
celeron55 |
really just have to wait |
| 10:18 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> however, a big exodus is pretty risky: we've seen that with people migrating from Twitter, as they jumped in another platform with a similar structure (BlueSky) |
| 10:18 |
celeron55 |
i really would wish software/technology ethics would be a more prevalent subject among the general public. unfortunately just showing a good example as a small project really doesn't help |
| 10:18 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> *into |
| 10:18 |
celeron55 |
and besides, luanti is already doing a lot to show a good example |
| 10:18 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> also, a big exodus towards one or two sites (e.g. Codeberg and I-dont-know) will make those sites explode |
| 10:20 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> celeron55: what exactly? Genuinely curious |
| 10:21 |
celeron55 |
simply by being a FOSS project with a FOSS ecosystem built around it, and a culture that appreciates these facts |
| 10:21 |
[MatrxMT] |
<y5nw> If we consider such an exodus to be unavoidable then it could be helpful to at least have some experience with the platform(s) we would migrate to in such a scenario. This does not necessarily require an immediate move |
| 10:21 |
celeron55 |
y5nw: yes, that's reasonable. that's what i'm talking about with continuously benchmarking codeberg |
| 10:22 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> also I don't think we're a small project. Sure, we are if compared to Roblox, but we're talking about something entering schools for education. With also the will to reach Steam eventually (possibly when that main menu is gone) |
| 10:24 |
[MatrxMT] |
<y5nw> celeron55: I think that's also what wsor suggests in their comment, at least for the initial steps |
| 10:24 |
celeron55 |
well, the difference in the sizes of projects is of course vast and it all depends on your perspective. but yes, if small is the smallest category, then luanti isn't there. but add "tiny" and "minuscule" below "small" and then it might still be small |
| 10:24 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> 11.8k stars on GitHub 👀 |
| 10:25 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> and, holy cow, 2.2k forks |
| 10:25 |
celeron55 |
if there was a way to be equally on github and codeberg, that could also be an option. i'm not sure how that would work. soundsto me like trying to have two girlfriends at the same time |
| 10:26 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> fuck, Godot has 101k stars and 23.1k forks. Twice the ones Docker compose has |
| 10:27 |
celeron55 |
godot has expanded its fanbase well into the crowd that would normally be only looking at proprietary software |
| 10:27 |
celeron55 |
and frankly it's probably partially thanks to github |
| 10:27 |
celeron55 |
luanti gets similar benefit from github. it's a marketing tool, a way to get more eyeballs |
| 10:28 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> and it's also company. Money helps |
| 10:28 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> *a company |
| 10:31 |
celeron55 |
anyway, so do you think i'm crazy for expecting a mass exodus from github, wanting to use that as a tool for media attention, and getting familiar with codeberg as preparation for that? |
| 10:31 |
celeron55 |
microsoft has never let me down in turning their products into crap. if they don't do that to github, it would be incredible in itself |
| 10:45 |
celeron55 |
of course, if the core team holds a vote and wants to move the engine to codeberg, then that will be done. same thing for the maintainers of other official repos |
| 10:46 |
celeron55 |
but don't go guilt trip them into doing that. that would be dishonest |
| 11:00 |
celeron55 |
i'll lurk at the matrix room at least for a while at least to get an idea what the codeberg staff are like |
| 11:02 |
celeron55 |
(doesn't make sense not to, given the opportunity) |
| 11:33 |
sfan5 |
@Zughy can you expand on the genocide point? I can't quite tell what that's about |
| 12:45 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> sfan5: here, mostly page 10 and 11 https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session59/advance-version/a-hrc-59-23-aev.pdf. You can also have a look at this group made by Microsoft employees in 2024 https://noazureforapartheid.com/, which has held protests in these days. In the overall (yet pacific) turmoil, Microsoft asked the FBI to help them track those protests as documented by Bloomberg |
| 12:47 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> also, arrests and some people fired (https://www.cnbc.com/2025/08/28/microsoft-fires-two-employees-over-breaking-into-protests-at-its-presidents-office.html) |
| 12:53 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> celeron55, re big exodus: I don't know, big techs did a pretty nice job in depoliticise the technology debate: for instance, Aaron Swartz committed suicide after 11 indictments for stealing academic papers behind a paywall and now Altman and friends are doing whatever they want with copyright, not only facing no legal issues but also getting filthy rich whilst promising the future. But if a sudden big exodus occurs, I'm pretty sure Codeb |
| 12:56 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> (I hate IRC because I can't edit my messages to express my thoughts in a better way) |
| 12:59 |
celeron55 |
your message also got cut off at "I'm pretty sure Codeb" |
| 12:59 |
celeron55 |
seems like the bridge is pretty bad at IRC |
| 12:59 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> "I'm pretty sure Codeberg or whoever won't be able to deal with all that big spike of traffic all at once" |
| 13:00 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> imagine if we had the biggest Minecraft/Roblox creators migrating to Luanti all in the same day or week. I can already hear rubenwardy crying |
| 13:01 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> (and CDB staff in general) |
| 13:03 |
celeron55 |
well |
| 13:04 |
celeron55 |
i like to split problems into negative and positive ones. that would be a positive probem |
| 13:04 |
celeron55 |
+l |
| 13:17 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> if staff doesn't quit :P |
| 14:16 |
MTDiscord |
<landarvargan> In a situation like that I wonder if a 'pay-to-win' website access/approval queue would work |
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sfan5 |
@Zughy I see |
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| 20:13 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> at that point you would probably draft every mod publisher as an editor |
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