| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:01 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> If we use an external server, don't we avoid the GH part of it and just get the benefits of git tracking? I thought that was the earlier linked convo |
| 00:01 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> I've asked about this multiple times, am I wrong in my understanding? |
| 00:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> There is no benefit here |
| 00:04 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Again, I don't want to slow us down if we need something quick in the short term. And maybe we just need a few videos uploaded by trusted contributors. But if we ever want to allow other folks to upload videos, we should use a user-friendly solution. Maybe we're not at that bridge yet, maybe we don't even want to go in that direction. Just want to make sure we're thinking this through |
| 00:04 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Ay caramba, no benefit to listing files and adding new ones? Git allows contributions, a webserver hosted by someone does not, that's the benefit |
| 00:05 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> I feel like I've been talked over a lot here. Maybe I'll make a proper issue later for focused discussion. Gonna walk the dog now |
| 00:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the file listing part is (1) not really needed (2) a more or less trivial grep. git lfs would only add a relatively unnecessary layer of indirection here. i am assuming that there will be an easier way to upload files than "ask wsor". |
| 00:06 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> And again it doesn't matter because the output is limited to 1gb |
| 00:06 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Again why does GH Pages matter for Git LFS? |
| 00:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> tbh realistically i don't think we'll be crossing 1 gb soon |
| 00:07 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Re last bit, yes. That would just be at the start |
| 00:07 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> My concern, in a sentence: When someone says "hey, I want to add this video to the docs site" what will we say? |
| 00:07 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Videos will easily eat 1GB of bandwidth in a month |
| 00:07 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the 1 GB is bandwidth? |
| 00:07 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Because 1gb of crap in git lfs will be in the output |
| 00:07 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Its both |
| 00:07 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Did anyone read the article? |
| 00:08 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Yes |
| 00:08 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> some variation of "here's the page where you can upload files" i imagine? |
| 00:08 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Well you linked it :p |
| 00:08 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i didn't |
| 00:08 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> All concerns are moot in the face of the bandwidth/storage limit |
| 00:09 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Unless Mark wants to foot the bill |
| 00:09 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> well Mark seems to have suggested hosting a LFS server..? |
| 00:10 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Which is irrelevant https://discord.com/channels/369122544273588224/926231483155378176/1338300327933509712 |
| 00:10 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Can third party servers be hosted as lfs? (I may have missed that) |
| 00:10 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> More they where suggesting I host it, but that doesn't matter |
| 00:10 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Yes |
| 00:11 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> A third party server would not be subject to bandwidth and storage limits |
| 00:11 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> See my comments meming about software to do that tho |
| 00:11 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://github.com/git-lfs/git-lfs/discussions/5583 |
| 00:11 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Yes, however all those files would still be in the build output which is lgb limit |
| 00:12 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Which source covered this |
| 00:13 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> https://discord.com/channels/369122544273588224/926231483155378176/1338211566889209909 read here down |
| 00:13 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> I'm on mobile, just google it |
| 00:13 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I'm not sure lfs contributes to the page size |
| 00:14 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> The contents in it will |
| 00:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I do get that Mark sees LFS as a piece of software which sort of does something we want here. But I think what we need here is simple enough that any half-decent file hosting solution does the job, letting us avoid the problems of Git LFS. |
| 00:14 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> It shouldn't be building media into the page, it should act identically to your webserver system |
| 00:15 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> ...... |
| 00:15 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Don't ...... me, back up your arguments |
| 00:16 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> It's going to get bundled into the public directory just as media and the while bundle is deployed |
| 00:16 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I'm sure wsor has already backed up his arguments on a local hard disk. Wouldn't want to lose them. |
| 00:17 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Maybe I misunderstand what LFS is, because if it just bundled media in the repo then why even have lfs |
| 00:17 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> It would defeat the purpose |
| 00:17 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Yeah, the way I'm currently understanding LFS it's just another layer of indirection (via Git) for basic links. |
| 00:17 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Lfs is for large files tracked in git, to avoid the issue of your repo ballooning in size every time there is a change made to them |
| 00:18 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Better than me sources that are a Google away for it tho |
| 00:18 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I get how this can make some use cases easier (such as backing up the whole repo, including large files), but these aren't very important use cases, and they are still relatively easy to do without LFS. |
| 00:18 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> I am absolutely not proposing we serve videos over GitHub pages |
| 00:18 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> I'm sorry if that was the message conveyed, I don't mean that at all |
| 00:19 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I don't think anyone thinks you mean that |
| 00:19 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> this is the result of serving over GH Pages |
| 00:19 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I'm on my phone at the moment and figured if people have enough stake in it to argue about this then they should be knowledgeable enough to accurately describe the proposed systen |
| 00:19 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> I mean, Aldo on my phone |
| 00:19 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Half watching the game |
| 00:20 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> The most boring match-up in the past decade? How's it going? |
| 00:20 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> well, you guys do what you want. Deploy what you want. I'll ask questions once it's built, I've been 90% confused this whole time. Sorry if I've been annoying, I just really want us to provide a good user experience to new contributors. I'm very scared when I hear things like "trivial grep" -- new contributors will be scared away if our instructions look like that |
| 00:20 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Eagles up? I think? Mostly watching ads and then switching back to here |
| 00:21 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Same as Mark, I do wonder a slight bit about how the file upload process would look like precisely. |
| 00:21 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I feel that if we just have a globally available upload page with no auth or anything, some spambot might come along and cause wsor trouble. Is that a wsor problem? |
| 00:21 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> That sounds like a cop-out. Dont put it on them when none of us are on the same page |
| 00:21 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I don't think new contributors will want to list the large files in our repo |
| 00:23 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> All we need to do is fill in the gaps and be clearer about the implications. Personally I'd like to understand what LFS is doing as a whole, even though it might be no-op due to self-hosting instability |
| 00:24 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> The wsor hosting would be limited to -docs members |
| 00:24 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> External people could just post the video in the pr and a docs member upload it |
| 00:25 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Honestly don't see all that many videos anyways |
| 00:25 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> The process I have in mind for contributions is very simple: 1. Upload file somewhere safe (hosted by wsor), somehow with a simple web interface (?), get a link 2. Write stuff, use the link to reference the file in the PR. 3. profit 4. ??? Same way you'd include a link to a large file just about anywhere on the web, except for places that directly let you upload such files. Frankly we could even just directly use the existing GitHub |
| 00:25 |
MTDiscord |
links (or do they ever go stale?) :juanchi_face:, that is, use GitHub PRs / issues as file hosting :juanchi_face: |
| 00:26 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> That's in the same vein as using discord as a host |
| 00:26 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Yep, agreed. Even if we somehow spectacularly messed up the large file process, it probably wouldn't cause too much trouble. Few things need videos for good explanations, and few people will bother to produce good video explanations, and many of the existing proper video tutorials are already hosted reliably e.g. on YouTube, which can just be linked. |
| 00:26 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> if it works, it works 😄 |
| 00:27 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> (It doesnt) |
| 00:27 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> well with discord there was an unexpected change in availability right |
| 00:27 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> they added these goofy tokens. i don't think that'll happen anytime soon with publicly hosted stuff on GH. |
| 00:28 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Well yes, but also no. They never supported that, it just worked till people abused it |
| 00:28 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Is the intent to self-host LFS for a webserver? i.e what wsor already planned to do, but with LFS on top? |
| 00:29 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> If you use lfs, you would have to block it from the build output, and have some sort of custom solution to make the lfs files nicely accessible |
| 00:29 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> It could just be a separate repo |
| 00:29 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Or yeah, block from build output |
| 00:30 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> The custom soliution for making the files available would be exactly what you already intend to do |
| 00:30 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Sure, still need custom solution to make it publicly accessible and serve it up |
| 00:30 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Which at that point I see no advantage to lfs |
| 00:30 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> The difference being the contents of your webserver is source-controlled via LFS |
| 00:30 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Mark highlighted the advantages (repo support/public listing) |
| 00:31 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Its simply a question of if those advantages outweigh the disadvantages (not production-ready, extra setup cost) |
| 00:32 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Also source controlling media is basically pointless |
| 00:33 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Diff is worthless, you could see older versions, for whatever that's worth (not much probabky) |
| 00:33 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Pretty sure the point of LFS is to recognize the fact that source control on media should be different |
| 00:33 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> . S/media/videos |
| 00:35 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the only two minor advantages LFS could potentially have would be (quoting the LFS site): > Same Git workflow: Work like you always do on Git—no need for additional commands, secondary storage systems, or toolsets. > Same access controls and permissions: Keep the same access controls and permissions for large files as the rest of your Git repository when working with a remote host like GitHub. |
| 00:35 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> The advantage is it keeps it out of .git, and it doubling in size every time since there is no git diff |
| 00:35 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Ok ok, remove git LFS. Just use git. LFS only helps with diffs anyway, not a big deal for us for now |
| 00:36 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> 1. Upload files to repo 2. Open and merge PR on repo 3. Build step deploys to our webserver 4. Files are now available for linking within docs.luanti.org or elsewhere Pros: - Familiar, mature interface - Easy to discover, list, and view large files Cons: - Diffs will be big (not a problem really) |
| 00:37 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> (again, this is just an idea. Go ahead and deploy whatever, I'm just replying because I was @ed a lot |
| 00:37 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Dont GitHub repos also have a size limit? (Not that it should be an issue) |
| 00:37 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> ) |
| 00:38 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Yeah |
| 00:38 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Cons: wsor might have legitimate reservations about hosting a LFS server given the state of the software |
| 00:38 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> If only there were some large files storage extension that allowed us to deploy to our own webserver instead of GitHub... |
| 00:39 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> ? I thought my proposal was basically wsor's idea but with git + deployment steps |
| 00:39 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Your proposal was LFS, and we cannot use GitHub's LFS solution, so we would have to host our own |
| 00:39 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Ah, new proposal, I see. Thanks for clarifying, I had thought that was an isolated counterpoint and not the start of a new proposal. |
| 00:39 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> I said "remove git LFS, just use git" |
| 00:40 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> (sry, that was in reply to Zenith) |
| 00:40 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> https://discord.com/channels/369122544273588224/926231483155378176/1338308079011495979 |
| 00:40 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Xenith* autocorrect |
| 00:41 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Once again, I think https://github.com/git-lfs/git-lfs/discussions/5694 solves any "GitHub bandwidth" issues |
| 00:41 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Oh |
| 00:42 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Yeah that would work |
| 00:42 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Not really |
| 00:42 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Explain, please |
| 00:42 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Why not????? |
| 00:42 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> You'll run into repo limits, plus pages limits |
| 00:42 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> No, wsor |
| 00:42 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Not at all |
| 00:42 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> "Git LFS is a command line extension and specification for managing large files with Git" LFS is a spec, not a service |
| 00:42 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> In any way shape or form |
| 00:42 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Please, sources, something, I'm dying here |
| 00:43 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> That discussion is talking about using your own server to host the files |
| 00:43 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> im respond to marks put it all in git |
| 00:43 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> GitHub handles the LFS part, it seems |
| 00:43 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Brother what |
| 00:43 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> By default the Git LFS extension connects to the GitHub LFS service, which has limits, but we can use our own service to get around those limits |
| 00:43 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> https://discord.com/channels/369122544273588224/926231483155378176/1338307637107753000 |
| 00:44 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> You said "Not really" directly after I sad "That would work" to something entirely unrelated to that proposal |
| 00:44 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Use replies |
| 00:44 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Yes, if we store large raw files on GitHub, maybe GH will hit us with a "repo too large" |
| 00:44 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Hence my everlasting plea to consider Git LFS as a spec. Host the references to the large files in git. Host the actual large files on a webserver. |
| 00:45 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Marks proposal is sounding better the more I understand what it actually is |
| 00:45 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> anyways, im going to summarize to hopefully get us on the same page 1. dumbass wsor hosts external git lfs + some way to serve the contents up on url while blocking the git lfs files from build output 2. dumbass wsor hosts basic file host service those are the two options being currently debated, correct? |
| 00:45 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> No |
| 00:45 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> What? |
| 00:45 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Not at all |
| 00:45 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> GitHub handles the LFS, you provide the hosting |
| 00:46 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> And we don't think you're dumb 😦 |
| 00:46 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> .....what? that makes no sense |
| 00:46 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Well I think the way this conversation is being handled is collectively dumb on all our parts |
| 00:46 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Meh, it is what it is. It's been hard for me to engage because you all have webserver knowledge I don't have, so I was very lost for a while |
| 00:47 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Stop giving up, thanks |
| 00:47 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Breaks are not giving up 😦 |
| 00:47 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> if your using lfs, either you use github lfs, or my(or whoevers) externally hosted lfs |
| 00:47 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Breaks are very very healthy |
| 00:47 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> You keep saying "whatever", "it is what it is", "do what you want". Those arent breaks. |
| 00:47 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> um... agree to disagree? We can discuss 1:1 if you like |
| 00:47 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> this isnt an airport, you dont need to announce your departure. if you need a break, just take it, or say afk |
| 00:48 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> OK, that's two in a row... should I go? I'm confused. I'm trying to be honest here about my unavailability as I wasn't sure if I'd be mentioned or expected |
| 00:48 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I need to get this out of the way for the future: You may disagree, but that verbiage removes you from the discussion. They can and will move on without you. |
| 00:48 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> I'm so confused |
| 00:48 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> You have a legitimate proposal and you keep saying "whatever, do what you want" whenever they disagree (with incomplete information) |
| 00:49 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> what verbiage? "agree to disagree"? I don't want to discuss someone's definition of "break" in a gc |
| 00:49 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Well, I kinda had an idea when I said whatever. And meant it. And then I was @ed a lot. So I came up with a proposal. You're still welcome to move on without me, is that OK? |
| 00:50 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> You started with the proposal to use LFS, did you not? |
| 00:50 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> I wouldn't call that a proposal |
| 00:50 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Proposal are detailed plans. LFS was a vague idea: maybe a tool we could use somehow |
| 00:50 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> so uh, let me know when where back to files, thanks |
| 00:50 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> You're on the team and you've brought it up multiple times, and put in the effort to discuss how it would be used. I'd call that a proposal. |
| 00:50 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> This is my definition of a proposal |
| 00:51 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Yeah can we talk about files instead of meta-discussion in this gc? Happy to discuss meta 1:1, Xenith, I don't mean any offense, really |
| 00:51 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Just dont pull the rug from beneath us when some of us (me) are trying to support your ideas. |
| 00:52 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> I'm sorry, I didn't mean to |
| 00:52 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> The more I understand LFS, the more this makes sense, and if I understand correctly, it is essentially free to set up |
| 00:52 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I am not 100% clear on it, wsor doesnt see how thats the case either |
| 00:52 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> ok so : https://discord.com/channels/369122544273588224/926231483155378176/1338309947951415386 then: https://discord.com/channels/369122544273588224/926231483155378176/1338310033342988328 then: https://discord.com/channels/369122544273588224/926231483155378176/1338310302839869553 |
| 00:53 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> I just needed to step away because I had been mentioning LFS for a while and gaining very little traction, if any. So I took a break and recognized that setting up something was better than nothing, and others seemed to have a clear idea. I figured, once something was set up, I could look at its actual pros and cons, instead of endlessly discussing vague hypotheticals |
| 00:53 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> But if I am understanding correctly: GitHub lets you set a file host for LFS (wsor's webserver) and will then use that to store the big files instead of in-repo |
| 00:53 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> git does, not github |
| 00:53 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Yes, Git LFS is a spec, not a service. you follow the spec to point to any file host you want |
| 00:53 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> GH just hosts git repos, it doesn't need to know you're using Git LFS, and you don't need to use GitHub's LFS service to use git LFS with GitHub |
| 00:54 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> I'll refer to "traditional GitHub" as "GitHub Repos" for now to clarify |
| 00:54 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Therein lies the question: Do we need to self-host LFS or not? |
| 00:55 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> github has a small base across the whole org, not per repo. otherwise you self host it |
| 00:55 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> I think we should learn how complex it might be, how hard it might be to serve files, etc. The 1 GiB bandwidth monthly is concerning if it means only 1 GiB worth of videos can be served before things are throttled |
| 00:55 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> in realistic terms, should self host it |
| 00:55 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> agreed, we should self-host |
| 00:55 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> or pay github |
| 00:55 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> I'll leave any financial decisions to you guys, I'm too new for that |
| 00:56 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> which is probably a no go due to <insert foss zealots screaming here, other bs, and its not really a good value per say> |
| 00:56 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Fine, clearer question: Is there a piece of software we have to host ourselves to leverage LFS? |
| 00:56 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Let me do some research 🙂 |
| 00:56 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I think we're bike shedding at this point: The cost of the discussion has probably long exceeded any differences the different solutions would have over a relatively long timespan. |
| 00:56 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> yes |
| 00:56 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Strong disagree there! |
| 00:56 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I refuse to give in to sunken cost. |
| 00:56 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> on the bikeshedding. I've learned a lot |
| 00:56 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> yes, i should have just hosted the damn files instead of starting this, sorry |
| 00:57 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> You could have hosted the files regardless, since that would be the end result anyway |
| 00:57 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Consider it personally valuable bikeshedding (it probably was), but for the purposes of moving the project forward, it is still bikeshedding. |
| 00:57 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> The only thing this conversation covers is how those files are managed |
| 00:57 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Now let's spend our time discussing whether we've really been bikeshedding or not 😄 |
| 00:57 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> meta-bikeshedding :itnaul: |
| 00:57 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> basically everyone uses https://github.com/git-lfs/lfs-test-server or built into there software forge |
| 00:58 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Bikeshedding implies uselessness or unproductive activity. This is both useful and productive for the future. |
| 00:58 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> its funny because its "not production ready" but everyone uses it as such that isnt in a software forge |
| 00:58 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I know we in Luanti love to point out when we bikeshed (because we've historically done it a lot) but not all slow discussions are bikeshedding. |
| 00:58 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> With respect to the scope of this project, I largely disagree. |
| 00:58 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> there is this list of other options: https://github.com/git-lfs/git-lfs/wiki/Implementations, but there all software forges, abandoned, or other reasons |
| 00:58 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> oh, we're actually gonna meta-bikeshed? OK, I'll go research LFS lol |
| 00:58 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> You were supposed to be doing that anyway |
| 00:59 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> anyways, back to this now, does anyone object that these are the two options currently? |
| 00:59 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Still no |
| 00:59 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> or should we have some more rounds of questions in circles |
| 00:59 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> We've had what, two videos pop up? We'll have how many videos pop up in the future? The most efficient route would indeed have been for wsor to just slap it on his server and put the links on docs.luant.org. |
| 01:00 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> what part do you object to |
| 01:00 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> So do it, it does not negate the value of the discussion |
| 01:00 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://xkcd.com/1205/ |
| 01:00 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Your first option combines a lot of assumptions |
| 01:00 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> And I thought we established the intent was not to serve through pages |
| 01:00 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> ok, break them out |
| 01:00 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> do you unironically think that learning isn't valuable? I've learned a lot, seems Xenith has too... |
| 01:01 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> They are misconstruing productive discussion for productive development |
| 01:01 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> so your fine with the second point as an established option? debate in circles the first one here? |
| 01:01 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> ugh, got dragged in. My short answer: discussions are worth it as long as they're moving forward, even if they're slow. It's been literally 1 day. If this was a 3-day thing, maybe I'd start to see any bikeshedding concern. But we are hammering out a proposal, not, well, determining what material to use for a bikeshed. |
| 01:01 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I already said to do option 2 because it will be part of option 1 regardless |
| 01:01 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Discussions to learn are different from discussions to achieve a certain goal within a project. For the purpose of achieving the goal, the discussion hasn't been very helpful. |
| 01:02 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> meh, in order to achieve a goal, contributors have to learn what the considerations are, what the options are, etc. |
| 01:02 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> ok, im going to put on my project leader role and say cease talking about bikesheding, return on investment, etc. this is a team project, and regardless of those things, need to get on the same page, at least for most people to avoid everyone being unhappy, please and thank you |
| 01:02 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> You yourself pointed out concerns of accessing, uploading, and managing files, which this discussion was intended to address. The hosting part never should have been in question and should have just happened. |
| 01:02 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> wsor, host the damn files |
| 01:02 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> This discussion is not related to hosting the files |
| 01:03 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> It should not have been related, but that was not made clear enough when it started |
| 01:03 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Yes, host the files now. I'll see how we can connect them to LFS 🙂 |
| 01:03 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Yes, and I think at some point there has been enough of that, and I think we've reached that point and should reach an agreement without concluding the discussion. |
| 01:04 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> LFS is a management solution meant to be placed on top of the hosting solution, and can be set up separately, and discussing it in that context is not bikeshedding |
| 01:04 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> (let's move meta discussions to 1:1) |
| 01:06 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> A large takeaway I have from this discussion is that we need to be very specific about which questions/problems/tasks we are targeting when talking. This is a linear channel and assumptions are dangerous. Whether its making sure we are clear about messages we reply to, or being clear about what an idea intends to solve or do. |
| 01:07 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> maybe if there are enough of us here, need a "pass the mic" system where a person has the floor for a few minutes and then passes it to the next person, dunno |
| 01:08 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> A lot of it comes down to us remembering to ask for clarification and assume we know less than we think we do |
| 01:08 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> haha that's called "a voice chat" |
| 01:09 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> anyways, before the lfs dumpsterfire proceeds, if im to host the files, one quesiton remains. my domain, or a *.lunati.org one? |
| 01:09 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> luanti.org of course! |
| 01:09 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> sub question if option b, what domain |
| 01:09 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> samsinventory.docs.luanti.org is fine by me |
| 01:09 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> But if we ever plan to put a video on the main page, for example, maybe just samsinventory.luanti.org |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> this is only for the docs repo at this time, in the future that can be addressed |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Really, anything is fine by me as long as it's under luanti.org |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> green: any objection on the domain? |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> also luatic |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> maybe just inventory.luanti.org? ¯_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> samsinventory.docs.luanti.org currently |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Is there any harm in using a regular subdomain now? |
| 01:11 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> not really, its more so just for the docs project is what im offering at this time. |
| 01:12 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> If the work to move it is trivial, I dont care |
| 01:12 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> and also trying to ward of any potential other people objection for "reasons" by scoping it to us at this time |
| 01:13 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> i assume you can read between the lines green |
| 01:13 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Provided I can parse your grammar first, yes |
| 01:14 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Any ol inventory could be tiny .. Sam's inventory is huge ;p |
| 01:14 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> (also IMO the stranger the better for an internal subdomain) |
| 01:14 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> so samsinventory.docs.luanti.org pointed at my server for "large files" hosting, the long term set up for hosting those files tbd |
| 01:14 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> speak now or hold your peace |
| 01:17 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> @celeron55 when you have a chance could you create an A record for samsinventory.docs.luanti.org at 136.243.154.97 which is my personal server for large file (such as videos) hosting for the docs projects. |
| 01:17 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> ok, now yall can debate lfs and me hosting it |
| 01:18 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> or not if you want a break/watch the game/etc |
| 01:19 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> lol, Chiefs are choking hard. At least it breaks their streak |
| 01:19 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> still two more quarters tho |
| 01:22 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> They'd have to get at least 3 or 4 touchdowns + some field goals without letting more goals/tds through. Im not confident, and I dont watch football so I have no idea how good the teams are. |
| 01:23 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> 3 touch downs + kick ins. and one more touch down only |
| 01:23 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> touch down is 4 points, kick in is 3 iirc |
| 01:23 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> while eagles get nothing |
| 01:23 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Touchdown is 6 points, 7 with a conversion |
| 01:24 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> yeah, dumb me, remembered the total was 7, not how it was split |
| 01:24 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> anyways, point is its possible still, but the odds arent great |
| 01:25 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> They could tie it with 4 regular tds or 3 conversions + field goal; Still need more after that, and not lose anything |
| 01:25 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Not watching the game this year, just checking in to say I know I wasn't perfect, so thanks everyone for a good discussion and for your patience. Glad we got something good deployed today too 🙂 |
| 01:26 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> i was just watching for the ads till .....this |
| 01:26 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> The most interesting part of football for me is the point strategies; The plays are too short and the setup is too long personally. |
| 01:26 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> anyways, seems no interest in discussing lfs atm? so im going to go back to watching |
| 01:27 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Unless there is a stable battle-tested LFS server implementation (that I assume would replace whatever webserver you are using?) it seems LFS will wait |
| 01:28 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> And also a convenient way to keep large files out of the pages build |
| 01:29 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> thats a decent summary |
| 01:29 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> glossing over a lot, but yeah |
| 01:31 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> I'll be researching custom LFS setup, it looks more complicated than I expected (surprise surprise), might send updates in a few days |
| 01:36 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i misread this for a moment as "chiefs are cooking hard", which made more sense in my european mind |
| 01:37 |
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| 02:41 |
mtvisitor |
happy new year!🤝 |
| 02:41 |
* mtvisitor |
also likes the website of docs.luanti.org. |
| 02:44 |
mtvisitor |
is it possible to add a section of <minetest game> in this website ? |
| 02:48 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I would appreciate a misc section for engine/project lore, like about c55 and calinous law and fun history stuff ( @mark.wiemer #181 ) and Minetest Game certainly deserves an entry there. |
| 02:50 |
mtvisitor |
okay, glad to know that. |
| 02:51 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> mtvisitor: we dont want minetest game content. probably just a summary page at best |
| 02:54 |
mtvisitor |
it will be good or better if you could add some discription on design or lua script level. |
| 02:54 |
mtvisitor |
but it depends on your decision or discussion. |
| 02:55 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Its up to MTG to document itself on its own terms. Sure we'll have a description of it, since it is part of the project's history, but its internals dont belong in the docs |
| 02:57 |
mtvisitor |
ok, thank you very much for your comment. |
| 03:03 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Actually, I see that about now includes c55 and mapgen-evolution/forks; I think a subsection for people (c55, other devs) and history (mapgen evo, forks, MTG) could be in order |
| 03:04 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> But that can be shuffled later |
| 03:06 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> i avoid people cause <reason> plus privacy and all that |
| 03:06 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> had the idea cross my mind however |
| 03:06 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> c55 can get lumped into history then :juanchi_face: |
| 03:06 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> fine by me 😛 |
| 03:14 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> If we want subsections, I'm down with team and history, and I do really want a mintest-game-overview page within about because so much of Luanti is tied to it, both historically and in present day mods built for "MTG-compatible" games |
| 03:15 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Ixne on the team/people thing for now, but history yes. An MTG section can get added somewhere later (out of scope for organization) |
| 03:17 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Maybe MTG in about/history? It is a "Luanti-official" project, right? Feel it deserves a place somewhere in about. But maybe I just really don't want a misc top-level section, as it'd just come off as kinda low-quality |
| 03:17 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I want it in history, yes |
| 03:17 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> But we have no MTG page right now (IIRC?) and adding it would be a different PR |
| 03:19 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Correct, no MTG page right now and it's not urgent. But we were on the fence about if we ever wanted one. I say we add one. Brief, covers the overview of the game, mentions that it's a common base game, no new features for the forseeable future, not recommended without mods, etc. Nothing about any internals, aside from links to the GH repo maybe |
| 03:19 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> We can also throw history up to version 0.4.0 in there (before the modding/game api) |
| 03:20 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> There was a wiki page somewhere that had info about early versions (showing ye olden trollface pyramids) ... where did that go |
| 03:20 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> https://tenor.com/view/ahh-gif-15919364902735906323 |
| 03:21 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> MTG-as-engine jumpscare, I know |
| 03:21 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> changelog-old should still exist |
| 03:21 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> https://docs.luanti.org/mapgen/evolution/ |
| 03:22 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> that? |
| 03:22 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> https://docs.luanti.org/old-changelog/ |
| 03:22 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Hm, there's the pyramids. I guess the trollfaces are elsewhere (they will be added). |
| 03:23 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Why do we even have an old changelog? |
| 03:23 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> cause it came from the dev wiki iirc |
| 03:23 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Also, shouldnt we just split the changelog into multiple pages (one per version)? |
| 03:23 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> 🤷 |
| 03:23 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> idc, see if any core dev screams for some reason |
| 03:23 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> A page-per-version would be a lot cleaner |
| 03:23 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Thats a post-5.11 thing |
| 03:24 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> nice easter egg on google if you search superbowl score |
| 03:24 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Cute |
| 03:25 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> chiefs gained points, but not enough, and didnt block |
| 03:26 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> I'd keep one big changelog for reference purposes, personally. Easier to search through e.g. "I know this change happened at some point, but when? Let me just ctrl+f the changelog". Usually orgs will do blog posts for individual releases, which we also do, might be good to link them from the docs site somehow. Overall changelog cleanliness is lower priority for me |
| 03:27 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Before the day is done, would appreciate some thoughts on https://github.com/luanti-org/dev.luanti.org/issues/181, will probably start implementing the least controversial stuff tomorrow unless folks go wild' |
| 03:27 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> wild* against the latest proposal |
| 03:27 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> That is a good point. In which case, I would merge the old changelog as it has no reason to be separate |
| 03:27 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> was thinking about this. I can do it when I start merging stuff, unless folks go wild about that change specifically, as mentioned above 😄 |
| 03:28 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Are any of the deletions actual deletions? Looks like most are basically renames/swaps |
| 03:28 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> The deletions are files whose content will be split or merged mostly |
| 03:29 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> mapgen files are not really split or merged, I guess, but the folder as a whole is "deleted" because its contents are split into different categories in the proposal |
| 03:29 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I would put calinous law under mapgen |
| 03:30 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> for-creators/mapgen, I assume? |
| 03:34 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Getting started should be part of the for-creators index, IMO Suggested for-creators subsections (these names suck, come up with something better): * "releasing" or similar for package metadata: distributing, licensing, dependency management, right to a name * "process" or similar for "when modding, remember:": debug, dev tools, troubleshooting, world compat, limitations, hardcoded, lua conventions, lua opt, luajit, mod interop, |
| 03:34 |
MTDiscord |
modding tips, programs and editors |
| 03:34 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Signing off for the night, happy to read feedback tomorrow evening 🙂 thanks everyone for a good day of discussion, really appreciate all your patience as I asked a million questions, lol |
| 03:34 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> The idea is to have "getting started" for each audience: getting started for players, getting started for creators, getting started for server hosts... |
| 03:35 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Sure, I just mean they should be the index of that section IMO |
| 03:35 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> If not the index, at least at the top |
| 03:36 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Yes, the for-x/_index.md files will generally hold getting started information for sure, sorry I didn't make that clear |
| 03:37 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> and history: celeron55, mapgen-evolution, forks |
| 03:39 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Proposal is 👍 from me; I expect you might find some alterations to make as you are moving things, and things can be tweaked later (better to get it categorized in some way sooner than later) |
| 03:39 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Will defs think on further categories within for-creators 🙂 signing off for realsies now! |
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MTDiscord |
<celeron55> That's there now |
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