| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
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mrcheese joined #luanti |
| 00:01 |
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FileX joined #luanti |
| 00:32 |
erle |
oh lol, stripping color codes |
| 00:32 |
erle |
like seriously |
| 00:32 |
erle |
they are stealing the rainbow from us |
| 00:32 |
erle |
coredevs hate FUN |
| 00:32 |
user2_ |
yea |
| 00:32 |
cheapie |
Hey, at least this time they're leaving a setting for it instead of going full GNOME "feature? better remove it" |
| 00:33 |
cheapie |
(yes, I'm still grumpy about digging particles) |
| 00:33 |
erle |
“If you told most server owners right now that this is possible they would consider it cheating.” – i know quite a few server owners and i have yet to see anyone say that writing colored text is cheating |
| 00:33 |
erle |
cheapie at least that's a thing you can change by having your own client |
| 00:34 |
erle |
maybe i turn digging particles off because they are visual clutter, but you know, giving users options is apparently wrong these days |
| 00:34 |
erle |
the server owner should decide! |
| 00:34 |
erle |
if the web went that way we wouldn't have ad blockers |
| 00:35 |
cheapie |
erle: It's worse than that, for digging particles the server owner (or mod devs) can't turn them off either |
| 00:35 |
cheapie |
(but yes, I do patch them out of my client) |
| 00:35 |
erle |
cheapie that is unfortunate |
| 00:35 |
user2_ |
we should send digging CRACKS to all players, but that makes it feel to much like MC imo |
| 00:36 |
erle |
cheapie i think that is basically the main difference between the direction the vanilla minetest/luanti is going and where almost all of the forks go. one is like “less features, less performance on hardware the devs don't have, more control to server owners”, everything else opposes at least one of these aspects |
| 00:37 |
cheapie |
erle: FWIW I did at least have some luck in -dev recently convincing a core dev or two that no, you cannot just set the default view range to 3000 and expect most people to have a good experience on all servers |
| 00:38 |
erle |
LMAO |
| 00:38 |
erle |
cheapie i think you got taken for a ride, no one is that stupid |
| 00:38 |
user2_ |
there's a fork that is literally the exact same, but has the engine's name changed in README.md. that's it, no executable renaming, no rebranding, no nothing except that ONE rename. |
| 00:38 |
user2_ |
3000 viewrange?... if you have a supercomputer, yeah sure |
| 00:38 |
erle |
not even tthen |
| 00:39 |
user2_ |
i would set it to 100 and leave it for the player to adjust |
| 00:39 |
cheapie |
erle: https://irc.luanti.org/luanti-dev/2025-09-20#i_6285281 |
| 00:39 |
cheapie |
3000 was exaggerating a bit but 1000 was mentioned |
| 00:41 |
cheapie |
If you scroll down a bit, I managed to get lhofhansl to join VE-C and see what the performance is like near the spawn there |
| 00:41 |
user2_ |
i never get more than 60FPS, i think i have a hardware cap |
| 00:41 |
cheapie |
sfan5 has tested there too (quite a lot actually) and has a general understanding of what the problem likely is |
| 00:43 |
user2_ |
i will say, 5.1x.x clients get more FPS on my RPi5 than 5.x.x clients |
| 00:43 |
cheapie |
Yeah, I've heard that from other players too, 5.10 and up (or thereabouts) being somewhat less slow |
| 00:44 |
cheapie |
sfan5: This reminds me - would having a local copy of that world be helpful for your testing? The downloads aren't publicly available but I can probably make the case for sending you one if it would help |
| 00:44 |
erle |
you know the funny thing here is that things only get tested when people object |
| 00:44 |
erle |
not like, by default |
| 00:44 |
cheapie |
Same goes for the other VE servers, except nodecore |
| 00:44 |
user2_ |
i was stuck on the 5.6.1 release from APT on debian 12 for a while... i can say it got ~30-45 FPS and 5.10+ get 45-60FPS |
| 00:45 |
user2_ |
after APT i used the flatpak releases, then switched to compiling which tends to get slightly higher FPS |
| 00:46 |
user2_ |
(for some reason) |
| 00:46 |
erle |
user2_ question: does enabling/disabling shaders on 5.10 make any difference for you on the RPI? i know low-spec machines where shaderless rendering is faster and machines where the shader rendering is faster. |
| 00:46 |
user2_ |
i can test it rn, does it need to be 5.10 in specific? |
| 00:47 |
erle |
since 5.11 has removed that option (leading to 30% to 60% fps drops on a lot of older or weaker GPUs), it needs to be 5.10 or lower. |
| 00:47 |
user2_ |
allright, i have every 5.x version precompiled and ready to run so it's not an issue |
| 00:47 |
erle |
neat |
| 00:48 |
user2_ |
unmodded 5.10 getting 60FPS with 100 viewrange |
| 00:49 |
user2_ |
shaders off |
| 00:49 |
erle |
increase view range to 150? |
| 00:49 |
erle |
also which game? |
| 00:49 |
user2_ |
lightly modded MTG, server is 37.27.252.202:30000 |
| 00:50 |
user2_ |
150 getting 50FPS |
| 00:50 |
user2_ |
49 to be precise |
| 00:50 |
erle |
okay, so then with shaders on. is it more or less? |
| 00:50 |
erle |
shaders on only, no effects. |
| 00:51 |
erle |
so it looks the same |
| 00:51 |
user2_ |
which setting in specific- i dont mess with shaders too often |
| 00:52 |
erle |
change the line "enable_shaders = false" to "enable_shaders = true" in minetest.conf |
| 00:54 |
erle |
also: if you knew that shaders were off, how did you not know how to turn them on or off? like how did you check even? |
| 00:54 |
user2_ |
shaders off seems to get ~57 FPS, on gets ~49 |
| 00:54 |
user2_ |
FPS |
| 00:54 |
erle |
see, that's what i am talking about |
| 00:54 |
erle |
but it looks the same, doesn't it? |
| 00:54 |
user2_ |
i assumed shaders are off by default, i redid the tests to be sure |
| 00:55 |
user2_ |
yeah, why would you add shaders that dont do anything visible... |
| 00:55 |
erle |
now want to try with mineclonia on oysterity anarchy? it has a very … colorful. spawn. |
| 00:55 |
user2_ |
i've been there.... |
| 00:55 |
erle |
i mean for performance testing |
| 00:55 |
user2_ |
very terrible no matter what settings i use |
| 00:55 |
user2_ |
i'l do it anyway tho |
| 00:56 |
erle |
if you do it, try to join without shaders and lower viewing range until it becomes playable subjectively. then report fps, rejoin with shaders, report fps again. |
| 00:56 |
erle |
oh and viewing range at which it is considered playable |
| 00:56 |
user2_ |
all right, loading now |
| 00:57 |
erle |
user2_ fun fact: there is a hole in the nether roof near spawn. i did not make it. but what i did make was the end portal on the nether roof, using a bug that allowed me to acquire end portal nodes. ;) |
| 00:57 |
erle |
the rails are most likely made by coras railbot CSM |
| 00:58 |
user2_ |
43 FPS with shaders off @150 viewrange |
| 00:59 |
erle |
and with shaders on? |
| 00:59 |
erle |
also i hope you are above ground and not looking at a wall lol |
| 00:59 |
user2_ |
i am above ground... |
| 01:00 |
erle |
although i must admit that looking at a wall is a great way to figure out if something is still rendered even if you can't see it |
| 01:00 |
erle |
:P |
| 01:00 |
user2_ |
41 FPS with them on |
| 01:00 |
user2_ |
not a huge amount |
| 01:00 |
erle |
yeah, interesting how small it is on the RPI |
| 01:01 |
user2_ |
ima try another area |
| 01:01 |
erle |
on all intel machines i have tested except one and on my underpowered arm laptop the difference is much more pronounced (usually it is the difference between playable and not playable) |
| 01:01 |
user2_ |
34 FPS with them on here |
| 01:01 |
erle |
and off? |
| 01:02 |
erle |
ofc you can always reduce the view range to make stuff playable, but then you walk around with view range 50 :( |
| 01:03 |
erle |
user2_ some time back oysterity used to have a lag machine at spawn. someone had made a menger sponge out of crying obsidian which generated particles that lagged players that were near it so much the game became unplayable. |
| 01:04 |
user2_ |
32ish FPS on, 36 off |
| 01:04 |
erle |
now crying obby got fixed to no longer cause as much lag |
| 01:04 |
erle |
user2_ guess RPI users are lucky! |
| 01:04 |
erle |
user2_ have fun exploring it. if you find any automated farms, look for signs like “ælla was here” :P |
| 01:05 |
user2_ |
RPis are underrated and treated as underpowered machines from 2005 |
| 01:05 |
user2_ |
they are really powerful >:-( |
| 01:05 |
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| 01:05 |
user2_ |
erle: i'm not going to play there much, just was testing smth |
| 01:05 |
user2_ |
(aka the shader settings) |
| 01:05 |
erle |
user2_ well graphics performance depends on a lot of things. |
| 01:06 |
erle |
if you want to do one more test, turn on mipmaps and tell me if that gives you some fps |
| 01:06 |
erle |
should be 1 or 3 |
| 01:06 |
user2_ |
on 5.10 as well? |
| 01:06 |
erle |
yeah |
| 01:06 |
erle |
ofc it will only do that if you enter an area where mipmaps are rendered |
| 01:07 |
user2_ |
on the same server or on the MTG server i was on earlier? |
| 01:07 |
erle |
nah, on oysterity anarchy |
| 01:08 |
erle |
since the scaling algorithm is naive/bad you can see where the mipmaps start easily if you look at nodes in the distance. you can test how bad exactly using my checkerboard test nodes. |
| 01:09 |
erle |
i believe hybrid_dog (?) once offered an improvement years ago (it's not a secret how to scale images in a way that you don't get such a bad result), but that was rejected IIRC |
| 01:09 |
erle |
so, does it have an effect on the RPI or not? |
| 01:09 |
user2_ |
37 FPS in a different spot with shaders on, mipmaps on |
| 01:10 |
erle |
just make sure it is a spot where you can actually see the mipmaps being used |
| 01:10 |
erle |
when i tested it, i got no difference at all when they weren't |
| 01:11 |
user2_ |
~27-30 FPS just walking around with them off |
| 01:13 |
erle |
shaders or mipmaps off? or both? |
| 01:13 |
user2_ |
~30-33 FPS with them on, walking around |
| 01:13 |
user2_ |
(shaders on) |
| 01:14 |
erle |
i see! |
| 01:14 |
user2_ |
so it is causing a performance increase, just a slight one |
| 01:14 |
user2_ |
speaking of shaders.... my friend is working on a proper SSR shader |
| 01:15 |
erle |
SSR? |
| 01:15 |
erle |
user2_ well obviously it is only a slight performance increase. the issue about such settings is that usually you have like 5 or 10 in a game and every one gives you a few frames. |
| 01:15 |
user2_ |
ScreenSpace Reflections (i have no idea what it means, just means that water and stuff will reflect nodes/entities/players) |
| 01:18 |
erle |
user2_ it means that reflections will only be rendered from what the user can see anyway. |
| 01:19 |
user2_ |
i got an early access screenshot- but i can't share it until the final product is done |
| 01:21 |
erle |
user2_ imagine you have a frame in which some water is reflecting other objects. you first paint everything else except the water. then you fill in the place where the water is with the reflected images of whatever it should reflect. |
| 01:21 |
erle |
you can of course only reflect things that are in the frame |
| 01:22 |
user2_ |
yeah, apparently he had a lot of trouble with the last part... |
| 01:22 |
mrcheese |
oh, i happen to be the person working on this shader :P |
| 01:22 |
user2_ |
oh hi |
| 01:23 |
mrcheese |
user2_: yeah the water normal was in the wrong coordinate space and i did not notice that for a while -_- |
| 01:23 |
erle |
user2_ so the main drawback is that you can not reflect things the camera does not see. |
| 01:23 |
user2_ |
does that really matter? |
| 01:23 |
erle |
user2_ think of it as a post-processing effect (because that is what it is) |
| 01:23 |
user2_ |
if you can't see it, it doesn't really matter |
| 01:24 |
erle |
user2_ depends. imagine a desk and below it is a puddle of water. you do not see the underside of the desk. |
| 01:24 |
erle |
user2_ imagine looking down at water. you do not see the clouds. |
| 01:25 |
user2_ |
that could technically be a cheat tbh |
| 01:25 |
mrcheese |
yeah, another limitation is that if you try to reflect something behind a wall of some sort, you either dont get a relfection or get a bugged reflection of the edge of that wall and you wont see what is behind the wall |
| 01:25 |
erle |
user2_ or simply imagine rendering a bathroom mirror. |
| 01:26 |
erle |
user2_ player character looks into the mirror. so what happens now? |
| 01:26 |
user2_ |
they don't see the stuff behind them reflected in it- |
| 01:27 |
erle |
preciscely. so, imagine your game has bathrooms. i give you your question back: does it really matter? |
| 01:28 |
erle |
obviously often game developers go to lengths to hide these drawbacks |
| 01:28 |
user2_ |
no, because mirrors haven't been implemented in MT yet :P |
| 01:28 |
erle |
so you have games with lots of reflective surfaces, but no mirrors |
| 01:28 |
erle |
user2_ ever played half life 2? |
| 01:28 |
user2_ |
no, i literally just started the original a week ago- |
| 01:29 |
user2_ |
and i have a free key for it if you want :PPP |
| 01:29 |
erle |
nah |
| 01:29 |
erle |
user2_ pay attention to the reflections. especially what happens when you stand in water and look down. |
| 01:30 |
user2_ |
anyway, i understand |
| 01:30 |
erle |
good night |
| 01:30 |
user2_ |
gn |
| 01:30 |
mrcheese |
gn |
| 01:32 |
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MinetestBot |
[git] SmallJoker -> luanti-org/luanti: IrrlichtMt: Fix Win32 device compile error (non-SDL) 4f77a91 https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/commit/4f77a91e04951cb3f1bbfc7133bcdc46d05d05fb (2025-10-04T10:57:14Z) |
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shaft |
What about this PR to worldedit? https://github.com/Uberi/Minetest-WorldEdit/pull/255 It's been half a year now and I got no feedback at all and nothing happened. |
| 19:52 |
shaft |
sfan5 has been active since two weeks and there is literally no one else with access to the repo who is active. I thought maybe he could take another look at it. |
| 19:52 |
MinetestBot |
[git] 109247019824 users.noreply.hosted.weblate.org -> luanti-org/luanti: Translated using Weblate (Bulgarian) 8b3e80f https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/commit/8b3e80f534026c89e47c654bda55b5fa8b75c6c9 (2025-10-04T19:35:52Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] Wuzzy2 -> luanti-org/luanti: Translated using Weblate (German) 23e208c https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/commit/23e208c7aab15a03ab630bab59c476a503f7a16e (2025-10-04T19:35:52Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] LudusExe -> luanti-org/luanti: Translated using Weblate (Italian) b6fe5fe https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/commit/b6fe5fee4315ea3ebeee9c2be6f98c996b20248a (2025-10-04T19:35:52Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] newrizen -> luanti-org/luanti: Translated using Weblate (Portuguese (Brazil)) bca99fc https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/commit/bca99fc7234b11777c61335d6f22385d775e8833 (2025-10-04T19:35:52Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] (7 newer commits not shown) |
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[git] maxchen32users.noreply.hosted.weblate.org -> luanti-org/luanti: Translated using Weblate (Chinese (Simplified Han script)) 3a0152c https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/commit/3a0152c491f4dbc56444f40b8f39d784f922e51e (2025-10-04T19:55:05Z) |
| 20:05 |
sfan5 |
shaft: you will simply have to wait |
| 20:05 |
shaft |
You know I can't :( |
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user2_ |
get your commits in, less than 24 hours till 5.14.0 releases |
| 23:47 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> chucks feature freeze at user2 |
| 23:48 |
user2_ |
bugfix commits* |
