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celeron55 |
http://paulmillr.com/posts/github-pull-request-stats/#lang-stats |
| 08:09 |
celeron55 |
>C++ |
| 08:09 |
celeron55 |
8D |
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Calinou |
lol |
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Calinou |
you're making it go down :D |
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| 16:27 |
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| 16:27 |
sweetbomber |
hello, anyone on? |
| 16:27 |
sfan5 |
no |
| 16:27 |
sfan5 |
as you can see the channel is completly empty [/sarcasm] |
| 16:28 |
PilzAdam |
sweetbomber, that question is quite stupid in IRC; we have logs |
| 16:28 |
sweetbomber |
sorry, just asked because just like me, sometimes i have irc open but not paying attention to it |
| 16:29 |
sweetbomber |
anyway |
| 16:30 |
sweetbomber |
ive been analysing the code, particularly the spawn code, and i noticed two things in code that i think deserve attention and that im willing to improve |
| 16:30 |
celeron55 |
all these replies meant is: just shout your question :P |
| 16:31 |
sweetbomber |
the first thing, is about the maximum spawn height: I noticed that it assumes water_level+6 as the maximum spawning height |
| 16:31 |
hmmmm |
!calc ask |
| 16:31 |
hmmmm |
well, Just *ask* a precise question (while clearly describing your problem) in the channel. Then wait for an answer. (Do not ask to ask, just ask.) |
| 16:31 |
celeron55 |
it's quite old code; it wants to place the player someplace near the origin in some low place |
| 16:32 |
sweetbomber |
i have version 0.4.6 from github |
| 16:32 |
hmmmm |
how can you improve upon the spawning code? |
| 16:32 |
hmmmm |
it does what it needs to perfectly fine |
| 16:32 |
sweetbomber |
the question is that certain biomes could just be high, just like highlands |
| 16:33 |
sweetbomber |
and then the spawning point needs to be high as well |
| 16:33 |
PilzAdam |
one thing could be improved: sometimes you spawn in a tree |
| 16:33 |
hmmmm |
so you'd like to be able to spawn in every biome |
| 16:33 |
hmmmm |
pilzadam, that cannot be fixed |
| 16:34 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: of course it can, but it will be more complicated |
| 16:34 |
sweetbomber |
i think there is not problem on spawning over a tree, i guess.. |
| 16:34 |
celeron55 |
sweetbomber: what is the second thing? |
| 16:34 |
hmmmm |
celeron, any ideas on how to fix that? :/ |
| 16:35 |
PilzAdam |
sweetbomber, not over a tree, inside a tree trunk |
| 16:35 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: well, it'd need to wait until the map generator has generated the desired location and then fine-tune the spawn position to a final one |
| 16:35 |
hmmmm |
right, who wants to do that |
| 16:35 |
PilzAdam |
hmmmm, maybe in Lua register_on_spawnplayer()? |
| 16:35 |
sweetbomber |
i have an idea to fix that, and if you agree, i can implement it. Basically inspect ground level, without any height limit |
| 16:35 |
sweetbomber |
and set it as spawn level |
| 16:35 |
sweetbomber |
the place to implement that i think is server.cpp |
| 16:36 |
Exio |
the code changed for that in upstream |
| 16:36 |
Exio |
when hmmmm fixed the "spawning too up |
| 16:36 |
sfan5 |
if you would implement that and send a pull request, that'd be appreciated |
| 16:36 |
Exio |
" or so |
| 16:36 |
hmmmm |
sweetbomber, we're not really interested in having the player spawn in high places though. |
| 16:36 |
sweetbomber |
I just wanted to discuss it with you, to know if it was a bug or a feature |
| 16:36 |
hmmmm |
if we specifically put a limit there, it's not a bug... |
| 16:37 |
ssieb |
hmmmm: why is that? What does it do if there is no low location? |
| 16:37 |
hmmmm |
then it'll choose the 1000th randomly generated location anyway |
| 16:37 |
hmmmm |
regardless of ground height |
| 16:37 |
celeron55 |
sweetbomber: i guess what you need to put special attention towards is that the ground is not yet generated in certain cases of player spawning but rather will be after some seconds |
| 16:37 |
sweetbomber |
My question arouse because i am experimenting with mapgen, and in high places, the player simply spawns underground |
| 16:38 |
hmmmm |
sweetbomber, that might not be caused by what you pointed out |
| 16:38 |
celeron55 |
so rather than a measured ground level, it currently then (or always?) relies on the guessed to-be-generated level reported by the mapgen |
| 16:38 |
hmmmm |
instead, it could be because Mapgen::getGroundLevelAtPoint() is no longer accurate |
| 16:38 |
sweetbomber |
in my case, the terrain was all at height 20... |
| 16:38 |
sweetbomber |
hmmm, that was my second point |
| 16:39 |
sweetbomber |
that im about to explain |
| 16:39 |
sweetbomber |
getGroundLevelAtPoint uses the terraingeneration functions |
| 16:39 |
sweetbomber |
to get the ground level |
| 16:39 |
sweetbomber |
but what happens in a mp server where some area of the map was severely dug? |
| 16:40 |
sweetbomber |
or completely covered by nodes? |
| 16:40 |
hmmmm |
if it was completely covered by nodes, something else will be chosen |
| 16:40 |
hmmmm |
if there was a big hole, well, then the player will fall in |
| 16:41 |
hmmmm |
i don't get why people believe spawning position is such a big deal... is it because it's the first (minor) thing people have to complain about upon starting the game? :/ |
| 16:41 |
celeron55 |
well, first impressions do matter |
| 16:41 |
PilzAdam |
how does MC handle this? AFAIK you always spawn at x=0, z=o |
| 16:41 |
PilzAdam |
*0 |
| 16:41 |
sweetbomber |
sorry, i am just volunteering to help out |
| 16:42 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: it first generates the full area (full height) around 0,0 and then figures out the top position... at least when i last played it |
| 16:43 |
PilzAdam |
there could be some kind of setting max_spawn so games can change it in their game specific minetest.conf if needed |
| 16:43 |
hmmmm |
i personally see it as too small of a detail to matter at all, but if you really want to change the height at which players spawn at, it might be a good idea to make it configurable |
| 16:43 |
hmmmm |
but there are already too many configurable things and this is bordering on ridiculous. i believe there's a static spawn point potion already for mods and such |
| 16:44 |
Exio |
why is adding options "ridiculous"? |
| 16:44 |
hmmmm |
adding an option to set the height range people can spawn at would really just be satisfying a *single* person's request |
| 16:44 |
PilzAdam |
yea, but static spawn point is too static for a game |
| 16:44 |
celeron55 |
derp |
| 16:44 |
celeron55 |
if someone wants to fix something, he can fix it |
| 16:44 |
sweetbomber |
besides, i think that some polishing is never unwelcome... |
| 16:44 |
sweetbomber |
and since i am new to this code, i wanted to start with something easy, instead of going to hardcore stuff first |
| 16:44 |
sweetbomber |
i am planning to contribute to mapgen afterwards... |
| 16:45 |
sweetbomber |
anyway, do you agree i could implement code to inspect ground height accurately? |
| 16:45 |
hmmmm |
I don't agree you could, it's much more difficult than you probably think it is |
| 16:45 |
Exio |
he can always try |
| 16:45 |
celeron55 |
yes; please just first be aware of all the nuances of what happens when you boot a world and want to put a player there (mainly the state of world loading) |
| 16:46 |
hmmmm |
celeron, this goes back to what i was talking about a long time ago where there was a world pregeneration period before players are allowed to emerge |
| 16:46 |
hmmmm |
rememeber that? and you said "let's not discuss something complicated like that" |
| 16:47 |
celeron55 |
my opinion is that there should be a solid system for just asking for a position and it would then generate or load it that you could just synchronously request a position to be loaded, no matter what |
| 16:47 |
celeron55 |
it would be useful for a variety of situations |
| 16:47 |
sweetbomber |
i agree that players should only emerge after the world, i think it makes sense.. |
| 16:47 |
celeron55 |
(to simplify code) |
| 16:48 |
hmmmm |
i removed that from emergeBlock for a reason .. |
| 16:48 |
hmmmm |
basically, now you're saying you want the serverthread to wait for something slow like the emergethread |
| 16:49 |
hmmmm |
i'd really rather have an asychronous event for these sorts of things |
| 16:49 |
celeron55 |
well whatever; but it should be doable in some way; currently it's doable only by a hack |
| 16:49 |
hmmmm |
i would be okay with waiting on emergethread if it wasn't so slow |
| 16:50 |
sweetbomber |
one thing fellows, regarding pull requests: I believe that your pull-request policy is one feature for pull, right? |
| 16:50 |
sweetbomber |
*per |
| 16:50 |
hmmmm |
yes |
| 16:50 |
celeron55 |
yes (i don't know anyone who's pull rquest policy would be any different) |
| 16:50 |
sweetbomber |
nice |
| 16:51 |
sweetbomber |
well...lets just say that ive already seen some strange things in the industry |
| 16:51 |
hmmmm |
anyway, if you'd like to have the player spawn higher, do make it a config entry |
| 16:51 |
sweetbomber |
ok |
| 16:51 |
hmmmm |
with the default what it currently is |
| 16:52 |
hmmmm |
(0, 6) |
| 16:52 |
hmmmm |
(well, water_level + that |
| 16:53 |
hmmmm |
also you plan on doing things with the mapgen, but i just want to point out that you can't change anything visible with mapgen v6 anymore, mapgen indev is a separate mapgen for these sorts of things |
| 16:53 |
hmmmm |
you can't change anything that would cause an inconsistency from already generated v6 maps* |
| 16:53 |
sweetbomber |
im studying mapgen v7...will it be adopted? |
| 16:53 |
hmmmm |
yes, but it's far from finished |
| 16:53 |
celeron55 |
v7 is dictated by this hmmmm you are talking with |
| 16:53 |
sweetbomber |
yes, i noticed that |
| 16:53 |
hmmmm |
it also does some terrain things that are stupid that i do not like |
| 16:54 |
sweetbomber |
i noticed that the terrain as some glitches |
| 16:54 |
sweetbomber |
like one-block towers |
| 16:54 |
sweetbomber |
and other stuff |
| 16:54 |
hmmmm |
not glitches |
| 16:55 |
sweetbomber |
i read some notch's statements, and he stated that he used some interpolation on perlin noise |
| 16:55 |
hmmmm |
oh, to remove 'towers'? |
| 16:55 |
sweetbomber |
this can at least cancel singularities on mp |
| 16:55 |
sweetbomber |
on map |
| 16:55 |
sweetbomber |
towers, and floating blobs |
| 16:55 |
hmmmm |
i don't know, is it _really_ worth it..? |
| 16:55 |
hmmmm |
i like floating blobs and towers |
| 16:55 |
sweetbomber |
i dont know |
| 16:56 |
sweetbomber |
i will test some algorightms latter |
| 16:56 |
sweetbomber |
as i said, im still getting used to the code |
| 16:56 |
sweetbomber |
lol |
| 16:56 |
celeron55 |
it was for speed, and it was for removing small features from the base terrain (to allow flat areas to be generated automatically); and as far as i know, it's 3d noise interpolation that notch talked about |
| 16:57 |
celeron55 |
interpolating 2d noise is quite boring and doesn't really result in anything |
| 16:57 |
sweetbomber |
he stated that 3d noise was quite slow... |
| 16:57 |
hmmmm |
he clearly hasn't seen our 3d noise implementation |
| 16:57 |
hmmmm |
heheh |
| 16:57 |
sweetbomber |
the interpolation was about height, i think |
| 16:57 |
sweetbomber |
wow, you implement 3d noise? nice! |
| 16:58 |
hmmmm |
huh? |
| 16:58 |
celeron55 |
well, MT's noise implementation was very slow, but then hmmmm came and optimized it and now it's essentially free for non-crazy things |
| 16:58 |
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| 16:58 |
hmmmm |
of course we did, how do you think did what we do? |
| 16:58 |
celeron55 |
(MT has always had 2d and 3d noise) |
| 16:58 |
hmmmm |
yeah, previously minetest only had point-value noise, but i optimized it for batches |
| 16:58 |
sweetbomber |
i will study that code |
| 16:59 |
hmmmm |
you still use point-value noise, obviously, use your own judgement to tell what's better where |
| 16:59 |
hmmmm |
your own judgement + profile it |
| 17:00 |
sweetbomber |
in the long-term, do you think biomes should be hard-coded, or configurable, e.g. in a xml? |
| 17:00 |
Exio |
the biomedef thingy |
| 17:00 |
hmmmm |
they're already there in lua |
| 17:00 |
hmmmm |
did you miss biomedef? :/ |
| 17:00 |
Exio |
is already here :P |
| 17:01 |
sweetbomber |
oh, i only saw the default biome defined in code, and the other ones commented out |
| 17:01 |
hmmmm |
i don't think i have anything commented out... hmm? |
| 17:02 |
hmmmm |
what are you looking at?? surely not the current head |
| 17:03 |
sweetbomber |
the createBiome function |
| 17:03 |
hmmmm |
in scriptapi? |
| 17:04 |
hmmmm |
oh |
| 17:04 |
sweetbomber |
biome.cpp |
| 17:04 |
hmmmm |
that's a factory function, nothing real goes on in there |
| 17:05 |
hmmmm |
see, mapgen v7 was something i wanted to do right away, but it got pushed aside for other more pressing issues, and i just re-started working on v7 about 2 months ago and i changed basically everything |
| 17:05 |
hmmmm |
the past month or so i've been busy with finals, graduation, job seeking, etc. |
| 17:05 |
hmmmm |
i really am still active though, i promise |
| 17:06 |
* Exio |
lynches hmmmm |
| 17:06 |
Exio |
;P |
| 17:06 |
hmmmm |
hey |
| 17:07 |
* celeron55 |
mentions that's largely what kahrl said before he left for a full year some 14 months ago |
| 17:07 |
hmmmm |
sweetbomber, i'm sorry, don't let createBiome() throw you off, the original intent of that was to have each biome "class" to have its own generateColumn() method (at that time i actually, foolishly thought that i'd be able to do terrain generation decently a column at a time with a single pass) |
| 17:07 |
celeron55 |
8) |
| 17:07 |
hmmmm |
s/foolishly/arrogantly/ |
| 17:08 |
celeron55 |
terrain generation is tough shit and notch was a god for a reason! |
| 17:09 |
hmmmm |
about that |
| 17:09 |
celeron55 |
then they broke MC and now even we have a chance |
| 17:09 |
celeron55 |
8) |
| 17:09 |
hmmmm |
i am going to toy around more with positive 3d noise |
| 17:09 |
hmmmm |
(but i honestly feel like it isn't completely necessary at this point) |
| 17:10 |
sweetbomber |
ok |
| 17:10 |
hmmmm |
mapgen v7 won't be ready until it's been completed and extensively evaluated by others, and tuned, etc. and even then it won't be the default for even longer |
| 17:11 |
hmmmm |
you can't help but look at projects that just change things for the hell of it and see how they become hated (like gnome, firefox) |
| 17:11 |
hmmmm |
but everything's okay if there's an option |
| 17:12 |
celeron55 |
MT has had some things changed for the hell of it already |
| 17:13 |
celeron55 |
not in the engine though, unless Lua is counted (it *was* done for the hell of it, largely) |
| 17:14 |
hmmmm |
in the end, lua was worth it, it transformed minetest into a minecraft clone into an increasingly-generic voxel engine, which makes it something special |
| 17:17 |
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| 17:45 |
hmmmm |
from a minecraft clone* |
| 17:59 |
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