| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:05 |
TBC_x |
you guys really argue on using i++ vs ++i? |
| 00:08 |
TBC_x |
afaik i++ and ++i don't change meaning when used standalone |
| 00:10 |
TBC_x |
the '++' stands for when the variable gets changed |
| 00:13 |
hmmmm |
it makes a difference when i is a nonprimitive type |
| 00:14 |
TBC_x |
the following will evaluate to true: i = 0; bool result = (i++ == 0 && ++i == 2) |
| 00:28 |
TBC_x |
hmm... I see |
| 02:43 |
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| 02:54 |
paramat |
hi hmmmm you've been quiet recently, i'll prepare this for merge later #3118 also this issue surfaced game#652 i will sort this out soon |
| 02:54 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/652 -- Schematic tree trunks destroy existing nodes |
| 02:54 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3118 -- Dungeongen: Remove floating stone rings by paramat |
| 03:04 |
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| 03:32 |
hmmmm |
ahh you found the problem |
| 03:32 |
hmmmm |
nice |
| 03:32 |
hmmmm |
if #3118 works as it's supposed to, then looks good to me |
| 03:32 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3118 -- Dungeongen: Remove floating stone rings by paramat |
| 03:34 |
paramat |
okay just need to test again |
| 03:35 |
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| 03:36 |
hmmmm |
been fighting a couple fires at work lately |
| 03:36 |
hmmmm |
honestly i could be doing minetest right now since it's the weekend but i'm kind of on a roll with work stuff |
| 03:36 |
paramat |
aha |
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| 04:06 |
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| 05:19 |
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| 05:25 |
paramat |
now merging #3118 |
| 05:25 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3118 -- Dungeongen: Remove floating stone rings by paramat |
| 05:31 |
paramat |
merge complete |
| 06:01 |
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| 16:43 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: ok now I've got those not-enough-memory errors happening in places that make no sense at all: 2015-08-29 18:33:21: ERROR[main]: Lua: OOM error from mod 'carbone_mobs' in callback luaentity_Step(): not enough memory // 2015-08-29 18:33:21: ERROR[main]: Current Lua memory usage: 856 MB |
| 16:43 |
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| 16:46 |
nrzkt |
VanessaE: this can happen everywhere, it's because the whole Lua VM take so many memory, not the current call |
| 16:49 |
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| 17:27 |
VanessaE |
great. |
| 17:30 |
VanessaE |
nrzkt: so what can be done to fix this? |
| 17:30 |
nrzkt |
find the consumming mod :s |
| 17:31 |
T4im |
no way to get the memory consumption of a lua table either, it seems :/ |
| 17:33 |
VanessaE |
nrzkt: that's next to impossible, you know, and with 24 GB of RAM I shouldn't have to worry about some mod that briefly consumes RAM from time to time. |
| 17:35 |
nrzkt |
the problem is not the server ram amount but the Lua memory limit |
| 17:46 |
T4im |
VanessaE: how well is that one reproduceable? is it like oom on each startup, or eventually after a while randomly? |
| 17:47 |
VanessaE |
T4im: it has crashed several times today alone. |
| 17:47 |
VanessaE |
and it seems to be within a few mins of startup |
| 17:48 |
T4im |
One workaround-ish idea would be to manually pcall() mod executions such, that you get "possibly" output some location info (though that can just as well just throw the next oom error) |
| 17:48 |
T4im |
that oom seems generally to be pcall catchable though |
| 17:48 |
T4im |
(you might have to cover some stuff in builtin/ too) |
| 17:49 |
T4im |
also _G dumping on error might help, if the offending mod references it globally somehow |
| 17:51 |
T4im |
then again, that _G dumping probably won't work without acquiring more memory first :/ |
| 17:52 |
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| 17:58 |
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| 18:05 |
VanessaE |
all right, this is confusing me.. how exactly do I specify an alternate install location for luajit? |
| 18:06 |
VanessaE |
(to compile MT against it I mean) |
| 18:10 |
VanessaE |
nevermind, figured it out. |
| 18:11 |
VanessaE |
I'm rebuilding this against luajit 2.1.0 just to see how it behaves. |
| 18:17 |
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| 18:31 |
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| 18:38 |
VanessaE |
nrzkt: so what about the info described here? http://bayesanalytic.com/access-extra-memory-from-lua-jit/ |
| 18:42 |
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| 18:42 |
hmmmm |
T4im, if we have tighter control over the GC behavior then it's theoretically possible to allocate a large enough chunk of memory from the start, say 10 MB, and then on OOM force it to become deallocated (then carry out the _G dump) |
| 18:42 |
hmmmm |
I agree on both fronts, it's just as necessary to discover what's using up all the memory as it is to have a higher memory usage limit |
| 18:43 |
hmmmm |
VanessaE, the problem with that link is that it requires the ffi extension which is not a part of lua 5.1 |
| 18:43 |
VanessaE |
it's part of luajit though. |
| 18:43 |
VanessaE |
http://luajit.org/ext_ffi.html |
| 18:43 |
hmmmm |
am aware. |
| 18:43 |
VanessaE |
ok. |
| 18:43 |
hmmmm |
if you want to break compatibility like that, it's your own call.. |
| 18:44 |
VanessaE |
eh, no. :) |
| 18:44 |
hmmmm |
not to mention that's manual memory management |
| 18:44 |
hmmmm |
I doubt it would integrate well with minetest's existing setup |
| 18:44 |
VanessaE |
just trying to help find a solution |
| 18:45 |
hmmmm |
if you're starting with a fresh api like the guy here is then i'm sure you can do it |
| 18:45 |
hmmmm |
I don't think it's too plausible to use this for minetest though |
| 18:46 |
hmmmm |
between the two options of reducing memory usage and increasing memory capacity, the former is much more valuable |
| 18:46 |
hmmmm |
you don't want GBs of memory to get handled by lua's GC |
| 18:46 |
hmmmm |
and there's no telling whether or not that memory usage will simply rocket up to the new maximum capacity |
| 18:46 |
hmmmm |
if lua is using that much memory to begin with, there's a bug somewhere |
| 18:47 |
hmmmm |
or people didn't design things too intelligently |
| 18:47 |
T4im |
unnecessary memory usage... but what about the space-time tradeoff kind of memory usage? we don't necessarily want to get back to slow but memory saving usage :D |
| 18:47 |
hmmmm |
when you're talking about GBs of memory that's a false dichotomy |
| 18:47 |
hmmmm |
iterating over so much memory isn't going to make anything faster |
| 18:48 |
T4im |
well yea.. those nearly 900mb indicate a problem of course.. |
| 18:48 |
T4im |
unless dreambuilder simply has become THAT big already? :D |
| 18:48 |
hmmmm |
it's not possible |
| 18:48 |
VanessaE |
dreambuilder is big but not THAT damn big. |
| 18:48 |
hmmmm |
that is not a natural amount of memory usage |
| 18:49 |
VanessaE |
the biggest memory usage of anything I can think of is biome_lib, but even THAT doesn't use that much (a few tens of megs if my estimate is correct, and then only on a 10-20-seconds-at-a-time basis, during mapgen only) |
| 18:50 |
VanessaE |
(and the code that does THAT hasn't been touched in like 6 months or so) |
| 18:55 |
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| 18:55 |
VanessaE |
in any case, this latest bout of OOM crashes came after pushing some updates this morning.........and all those consisted of was some new skins. |
| 18:56 |
VanessaE |
(no code updates, I'm pretty sure) |
| 18:56 |
VanessaE |
http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/stats.html |
| 18:56 |
VanessaE |
look at the memory usage graph here; that train of "saw teeth" from 12:00 to a bit over an hour ago was VE-Survival restarting repeatedly. |
| 18:57 |
VanessaE |
sometimes with Lua itself reporting an "unprotected" OOM, sometimes with minetest reporting it alongside a backtrace. |
| 18:57 |
T4im |
I don't take it you still have the profiler running? |
| 18:57 |
VanessaE |
no. |
| 18:57 |
VanessaE |
(the server went down because it's running /clearobjects now) |
| 19:00 |
VanessaE |
http://pastebin.com/NcK64HZC |
| 19:00 |
VanessaE |
there's an example of one of those "unprotected" restarts. never seen this before. |
| 19:01 |
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| 19:01 |
VanessaE |
times in the log are CET, so that particular crash was only about an hour and a half ago |
| 19:02 |
VanessaE |
server was at commit ffe3f03b at the time |
| 19:06 |
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| 19:36 |
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| 19:43 |
paramat |
celeron55 i hope you return to work on minetest again, what new features would encourage you to use and develop minetest again? |
| 19:46 |
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| 20:06 |
celeron55 |
it's complicated |
| 20:08 |
celeron55 |
i don't think it's that much up to new features; i can make new features myself if i want to |
| 20:09 |
celeron55 |
altough, i seriously lack any kind of routine for it by now in this project |
| 20:14 |
celeron55 |
i'm not interested in any kind of first person block games at all |
| 20:14 |
celeron55 |
there's no way to make minetest interesting because it's quite limited to being just that |
| 20:15 |
rubenwardy |
celeron55: with client-side scripting, you could make the ability to control inputs and cameras |
| 20:15 |
rubenwardy |
and so make an RTS camera |
| 20:15 |
celeron55 |
minetest is stupidly far from an RTS engine |
| 20:15 |
rubenwardy |
I suppose switching to marching cubes might be quite difficult |
| 20:16 |
celeron55 |
the most you could do is a DOTA clone, which i find very boring too |
| 20:17 |
celeron55 |
a thing i am interested to try to use is fixed-size worlds with all entities active at all times |
| 20:17 |
celeron55 |
first person is fine, i don't have a reason to care about that |
| 20:18 |
celeron55 |
i mean, i have as a separate thing, but not related to fixed-size all-active worlds |
| 20:19 |
celeron55 |
but for example right now there is no way anyone could make me use minetest, even these features or even money or anything; i have other projects that need me way more |
| 20:20 |
rubenwardy |
by use, do you mean to make a game in it, or to develop it further? |
| 20:20 |
rubenwardy |
I agree that it's too limited as a game engine |
| 20:24 |
celeron55 |
don't say that; that makes you have to define what actually is a game engine and it's unproductive |
| 20:24 |
rubenwardy |
lol |
| 20:25 |
rubenwardy |
that is true |
| 20:25 |
celeron55 |
rpg maker is a very bad game engine if you want to make an fps; that doesn't make it bad though |
| 20:25 |
celeron55 |
minetest is very bad if you want to... umm... well do things that it's not designed for |
| 20:27 |
celeron55 |
minetest is a one-instance-per-server multiplayer block sandbox engine |
| 20:27 |
celeron55 |
or, that's what it's designed to be |
| 20:27 |
celeron55 |
(instance or world or however one wants to call it; instance is kind of an MMO term i guess) |
| 20:30 |
paramat |
okay i see. i miss your influence here a little =) |
| 20:33 |
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| 20:34 |
celeron55 |
now that i think of it, i think one reason i don't care about minetest is that i have learned a lot about game design since i started |
| 20:35 |
celeron55 |
minetest is not a good platform for many game designs at all |
| 20:35 |
celeron55 |
it's more of a playground than a game (well duh, sandbox) and it doesn't allow me to make games as i want to |
| 20:36 |
twoelk |
"fixed-size worlds with all entities active at all times" sounds like beeing able to use minecarts for transporting resources accross playerless streches of the map |
| 20:36 |
rubenwardy |
I guess it's rather hard to fix that |
| 20:36 |
rubenwardy |
twoelk, not really, that wouldn't be fixed-size :P |
| 20:36 |
celeron55 |
twoelk: well yes, if by stretches you mean "across the 500 node wide map" |
| 20:38 |
twoelk |
for example to have npc's involved in some sort of economy that does note relate to player presence |
| 20:38 |
rubenwardy |
loading a chunk for a cart seems a big overkill, I'd use some sort of node network with timings |
| 20:38 |
rubenwardy |
ie: 5 minutes between node A and B. |
| 20:38 |
twoelk |
-> the typical warcraft enemy buildup hidden from the player |
| 20:39 |
rubenwardy |
but I guess it wouldn't be as flexible in terms of eg: stuff falling onto rails |
| 20:39 |
rubenwardy |
celeron55, is buildat more of what you wanted Minetest to be? |
| 20:40 |
celeron55 |
i wouldn't want to spend time implementing stuff on some obscure level-of-detail abstractions; i'd just want the 500x500 world where everything works all the time according to the single lines of code i would have written |
| 20:40 |
celeron55 |
rubenwardy: buildat is buildat |
| 20:41 |
rubenwardy |
de-ja vu |
| 20:41 |
rubenwardy |
I think I've asked that question before, and you gave the same response :P |
| 20:41 |
celeron55 |
minetest was meant to be a survival-focused minecraft clone |
| 20:41 |
celeron55 |
it didn't really turn out that way |
| 20:42 |
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| 20:42 |
celeron55 |
it's more like house building focused now; not really something i need or want |
| 20:42 |
rubenwardy |
more of a builder with increasing genericalism |
| 20:42 |
rubenwardy |
inb4 :P |
| 20:43 |
celeron55 |
but i'm not really interested in designing the survival game i wanted to make back tehn |
| 20:43 |
celeron55 |
then* |
| 20:44 |
celeron55 |
i know it's probably not going to work the way i thought it could |
| 20:44 |
twoelk |
the cart was just an example - another extreme would be a herd of npc-animals roaming the map in a sensible migrational way or a ferry line working, player present or not. If survival goes beyond the hunter gatherer level I would think this becomes more and more important to have |
| 20:47 |
hmmmm |
you know, maybe it's not such a good idea to try to make minetest do everything |
| 20:47 |
celeron55 |
the way i think about minetest is that it's one of my game prototypes, but one that seriously got out of hand |
| 20:47 |
hmmmm |
i love the example with RTS maker, and it's common knowledge that games which try to do too much fall short in lots of areas |
| 20:47 |
celeron55 |
_rpg_ maker |
| 20:47 |
hmmmm |
i'd rather have minetest remembered as a quality piece of software that does X, and not a piece of shit that's bad at everything |
| 20:48 |
hmmmm |
right now it's the latter |
| 20:48 |
celeron55 |
now just define X 8) |
| 20:48 |
hmmmm |
the only people who actually like minetest are its hardcore devotees who make mods and are generally known as part of the "community" |
| 20:48 |
hmmmm |
X is minecraft/infiniminer-inspired sandbox games |
| 20:48 |
hmmmm |
i realize there's a push in all sorts of directions thanks to modders |
| 20:49 |
hmmmm |
just like there was a push to have starcraft in all sorts of awkward directions thanks to map makers |
| 20:49 |
celeron55 |
infininiminer has fixed-size worlds and each game has a beginning and an end i think; should minetest support that then |
| 20:49 |
hmmmm |
whenever there's a potential for user generated content, content makers will try to push the platform to do things it was never designed for |
| 20:49 |
hmmmm |
of course it should |
| 20:49 |
celeron55 |
or is infiniminer there "just because" |
| 20:49 |
* twoelk |
hasn't published any mods, but loves building so that still fits sort of what has been said |
| 20:50 |
hmmmm |
i think it might be a better idea to resist the pushes into these awkward directions rather than facilitate bad ideas |
| 20:50 |
hmmmm |
remember there was that FPS mod? |
| 20:50 |
hmmmm |
we do plan on making some improvements to minetest which may help make FPS mods easier |
| 20:50 |
hmmmm |
but there's no catering involved |
| 20:51 |
hmmmm |
i thought about it long and hard and indeed, you're right, it's a terrible idea to make minetest "generic" |
| 20:52 |
twoelk |
so a list of goals is once again needed? |
| 20:52 |
hmmmm |
the first step is to stop advertising minetest as a generic game engine |
| 20:52 |
rubenwardy |
and get a good minetest_game, then |
| 20:52 |
celeron55 |
buildat is like minetest but fairly generic, but even it is limited to multiplayer servers by design (not single-world though) |
| 20:52 |
hmmmm |
it never was that, we're only fooling ourselves trying to make it into that, and it's wreaking havok on overall quality |
| 20:53 |
twoelk |
so exactly which direction should be discouraged? |
| 20:53 |
celeron55 |
but... it's not really advertised as a game engine, but as an infinite-world block sandbox game engine |
| 20:53 |
hmmmm |
to make everything generic |
| 20:53 |
celeron55 |
there's a large difference |
| 20:53 |
hmmmm |
generalize things within reason |
| 20:54 |
celeron55 |
maybe we should drop the engine anyway though |
| 20:54 |
twoelk |
argh! strike the word infinite |
| 20:54 |
hmmmm |
infinite can be done with multiple worlds |
| 20:54 |
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| 20:54 |
celeron55 |
it's infinite compared to all the shitty open source prototypes with a 200x200 world |
| 20:54 |
twoelk |
yeah I can have infinite bread if I keep buying new loafs |
| 20:54 |
hmmmm |
there's another minecraft-like game out there that has this distributed server network thing going on where users can walk off the edge of one world and enter another server transparently |
| 20:55 |
hmmmm |
that's really cool but this sort of functionality is obviously a stretch goal |
| 20:55 |
VanessaE |
didn't...I suggest that like, a year ago? |
| 20:55 |
hmmmm |
suggest? |
| 20:55 |
celeron55 |
let's define it as "31k^2-world" instead of "infinite-world", ok? 8) |
| 20:55 |
hmmmm |
i suppose so |
| 20:55 |
celeron55 |
"31k^3-world"* |
| 20:55 |
hmmmm |
but a mere suggestion is a long way off |
| 20:55 |
twoelk |
mt is large but "infinite" raises interest in the wrong direction |
| 20:55 |
rubenwardy |
62k? 31 is radius |
| 20:55 |
celeron55 |
oops |
| 20:56 |
paramat |
'almost infinite' =P~ |
| 20:56 |
celeron55 |
"62k^3-world"* |
| 20:56 |
hmmmm |
just a reminder that ideas are plentiful, shit-getting-done is rare |
| 20:56 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: fair enough, but point is the idea came up before and no one felt it was a useful way forward. |
| 20:56 |
hmmmm |
oh if i had a nickel for every "idea guy who needs a technical guy" situation |
| 20:56 |
sfan5 |
mingw32 build is broken: http://sprunge.us/ZTeT |
| 20:57 |
celeron55 |
adding that to minetest is infinitely easy; just add an api like minetest.forward_player("hmmmm", "server.net:30005") |
| 20:57 |
hmmmm |
not saying that idea guys are worthless, but it's just not worth much if it isn't executed upon successfully |
| 20:57 |
celeron55 |
or "redirect" or whatever |
| 20:57 |
VanessaE |
(the "better" way instead seemed to settle on splitting the vertical dimension into multiple sub-realms) |
| 20:57 |
celeron55 |
then just let the modders and servers make use of it |
| 20:57 |
hmmmm |
celeron, good job defining an interface |
| 20:57 |
hmmmm |
now how about all the hard parts |
| 20:58 |
hmmmm |
but anyway no, what I was describing does the server connection transparently and it seamlessly integrates |
| 20:58 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: better idea is a teleporter block that does that. |
| 20:58 |
VanessaE |
I guess minecraft uses "linking books" for this purpose. |
| 20:58 |
celeron55 |
well i was thinking it would just disconnect and connect to the other place |
| 20:58 |
celeron55 |
but i guess you were thinking of something fancier |
| 20:58 |
hmmmm |
i.e. when a player gets within the view range of another server's nodes, it automatically connects and begins requesting blocks from that other server 8) |
| 20:59 |
hmmmm |
no I'm not saying this is an idea, it's a feature that already exists in another minetest competitor |
| 20:59 |
hmmmm |
instead of modding and flexibility and all that neat stuff, other people have gone into other directions |
| 20:59 |
twoelk |
I'm all for a "limbo" ocean between servers to ease the transfer |
| 21:00 |
hmmmm |
VanessaE: yes, a teleporter block makes it easy to do this |
| 21:00 |
celeron55 |
whatever, the point of this discussion is not this particular feature |
| 21:00 |
hmmmm |
from a user point of view |
| 21:00 |
hmmmm |
but you also need the authentication |
| 21:00 |
VanessaE |
of course. |
| 21:00 |
hmmmm |
and it's a lot of work on Client to make this work |
| 21:00 |
hmmmm |
err |
| 21:01 |
hmmmm |
Client is not designed for this* there'd be a lot of code changes necessary |
| 21:01 |
VanessaE |
I'm just saying from a gameplay standpoint; when you get to the edge of the world, frankly I think it would be better to render a "wall" or something, than to try to fetch blocks from another server. |
| 21:01 |
hmmmm |
it's not as simple as adding some kind of api |
| 21:01 |
hmmmm |
unless you want something utterly useless |
| 21:01 |
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| 21:01 |
VanessaE |
(think minecraft's "farlands" but simulated) |
| 21:01 |
hmmmm |
I guess |
| 21:01 |
twoelk |
bah, just give the main menu a tardis like ingame interface that fools the player into thinking he is not in the main menu |
| 21:02 |
celeron55 |
well i mean, minetest's design policy was always "prototype first, think later" when i was the one who did things; and i'm sure a primitive version of this feature would have been found fun just fine without all the concerns being cared about |
| 21:02 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 21:03 |
celeron55 |
i guess it's now different, but that's part of the problem |
| 21:04 |
hmmmm |
I really dislike that design policy |
| 21:04 |
hmmmm |
still to this day it causes a lot of problems |
| 21:04 |
celeron55 |
i know you do, and i am not saying it would work now in this organization |
| 21:05 |
celeron55 |
but MT wouldn't exist without it |
| 21:05 |
hmmmm |
but then again you were designing minetest for yourself at the time |
| 21:05 |
celeron55 |
there's no way MT would have become anything if i were to get stuck into any details |
| 21:06 |
hmmmm |
I think you really shot yourself in the foot when scripting got added |
| 21:06 |
celeron55 |
maybe; it was fun at the time though |
| 21:06 |
hmmmm |
if minetest remained scriptless then your design policy would be completely acceptable |
| 21:06 |
hmmmm |
or maybe if the number of users remained relatively small |
| 21:08 |
twoelk |
but mt would not have been so diverse |
| 21:09 |
rubenwardy |
I like diversity, but it's pointless if the quality's no good |
| 21:10 |
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| 21:10 |
celeron55 |
i think one of the elephants in the room when it comes to quality is formspecs |
| 21:10 |
hmmmm |
that's getting worked on |
| 21:10 |
celeron55 |
and because of this i am waiting for what comes of the ogre3d thing |
| 21:11 |
VanessaE |
did zeno never release his code? |
| 21:11 |
rubenwardy |
I was talking to an Irrlicht guy, they actually expect people to make their own GUI system :P |
| 21:11 |
celeron55 |
i expect too, but so far not me nor anyone else has made one |
| 21:11 |
twoelk |
does ogre3d have something better builtin? |
| 21:12 |
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| 21:12 |
celeron55 |
(i have stated multiple times that we should have a pure-lua gui system that we can additionally release as a stand-alone library) |
| 21:13 |
twoelk |
hehe - can't we just hijack something? |
| 21:13 |
celeron55 |
such does not exist |
| 21:14 |
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| 21:15 |
hmmmm |
I've been tossing around the idea of having a programatically generated GUI |
| 21:15 |
hmmmm |
expose a set of lua APIs to create/whatever a GUI |
| 21:15 |
hmmmm |
as well as an XML-based GUI description language |
| 21:15 |
twoelk |
maybe a lua-markdown interpreter for an ingame helpsystem might be some start |
| 21:16 |
hmmmm |
you know, like <form><edit id="cool_edit_box">Enter your text here...</edit><button id="neat_button_1">This is a button</button> |
| 21:16 |
twoelk |
ah, a lua-xul interpreter ;-P |
| 21:16 |
VanessaE |
why not Qt? :) |
| 21:16 |
* VanessaE |
hides |
| 21:16 |
Sketch2 |
what about CEGUI? |
| 21:16 |
twoelk |
actually I rather like XUL |
| 21:17 |
Sketch2 |
it will do both Irrlicht and Ogre |
| 21:18 |
twoelk |
does CEGUI allow skinning? |
| 21:20 |
Sketch2 |
yeah, I believe so |
| 21:27 |
twoelk |
hm.. supported platforms of CEGUI are win.mac,linux... hope that includes android and i-os |
| 21:30 |
rubenwardy |
BSD, too |
| 21:34 |
TBC_x |
tcl/tk? |
| 21:34 |
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| 21:35 |
VanessaE |
TBC_x: why not Xaw then ;) |
| 21:35 |
paramat |
hmmmm okay if i now merge #3119 even though it's 1 commit behind? there are no files shared with MT's latest commit |
| 21:36 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3119 -- Change ore chance in clusters by Gael-de-Sailly |
| 21:36 |
TBC_x |
or something with tk-like api |
| 21:36 |
twoelk |
http://sumwars.org/wiki/File:Sumwars_0.5.5_-Trading_a_bit.jpg <-that seems to be CEGUI driven then |
| 21:37 |
paramat |
and any thoughts on #2899 ? |
| 21:37 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2899 -- Allow doing something before the core mapgen and minetest.registered_on_generates are executed |
| 21:38 |
paramat |
also is #1815 really an issue worth keeping open? |
| 21:38 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1815 -- Incomplete mapblocks being saved to database |
| 21:41 |
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| 21:42 |
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| 21:42 |
est31 |
I would agree with xul |
| 21:43 |
est31 |
but we must not use javascript |
| 21:43 |
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| 21:44 |
est31 |
but xul is dying |
| 21:44 |
est31 |
before long we would have to supply our own renderer |
| 21:44 |
est31 |
or a xul → html converter |
| 21:44 |
VanessaE |
est31: so I guess we'll be linking against webkit soon? ;) |
| 21:44 |
VanessaE |
(or whatever is the new hotness) |
| 21:44 |
est31 |
xul is gecko :) |
| 21:45 |
TBC_x |
I don't think that html is flexible enough |
| 21:45 |
VanessaE |
yep I know, but who in their right mind would choose that? ;) |
| 21:46 |
est31 |
we could say we use servo, its a next generation web rendering engine |
| 21:46 |
est31 |
much faster than gecko or webkit or blink |
| 21:46 |
est31 |
we could have some layer of abstraction, by using CEF |
| 21:47 |
est31 |
CEF is an API implemented both for servo and chrome |
| 21:47 |
est31 |
TBC_x, whats more flexible in your opinion? |
| 21:50 |
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| 21:52 |
VanessaE |
all right this is pissing me off now |
| 21:54 |
VanessaE |
these OOM errors have GOT to stop. |
| 21:55 |
VanessaE |
/clearobjects apparently does NOT clear all objects from the world. |
| 21:56 |
VanessaE |
(either that or my mods are just quicker than me at re-creating their missing entities before I can restart the server) |
| 21:56 |
VanessaE |
how am I supposed to manage this? |
| 21:56 |
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| 22:00 |
twoelk |
black magic |
| 22:01 |
VanessaE |
at this point, these fake OOM issues are the only things crashing my servers now. |
| 22:01 |
est31 |
celeron55, did you know that rubenwardy has added a patch to customize the map limit? |
| 22:02 |
est31 |
it would enable to make smaller maps than the current 31^3 |
| 22:02 |
est31 |
31k* |
| 22:06 |
VanessaE |
all right I'll say it plain: am I gonna be forced to stop using luajit because of these OOM errors? |
| 22:06 |
* twoelk |
hopes that some mapgen will soon allow to define what the map edges should look like - some barier. sheer cliffs, high mountains, an endless sea, a jungle too full of monsters to get through or some void for example |
| 22:07 |
VanessaE |
twoelk: an endless sea makes the most sense imho |
| 22:07 |
VanessaE |
other games tend to draw tall mountains and just prevent the player from walking to them |
| 22:08 |
VanessaE |
(like a skybox blended into the terrain or something) |
| 22:08 |
TBC_x |
anyone played motocross madness? |
| 22:08 |
VanessaE |
nope. |
| 22:08 |
twoelk |
would be the easiest to simulate travelling to another server if that ever is supported |
| 22:10 |
TBC_x |
https://youtu.be/jLg2hRSUoL8 |
| 22:11 |
TBC_x |
I have a draft somewhere of how to implement multiworld capability |
| 22:11 |
TBC_x |
but it requires significant architecture rework |
| 22:12 |
est31 |
I prefer the approach thats least intrusive |
| 22:12 |
est31 |
but multiworld is a pretty basic change |
| 22:13 |
est31 |
so it will be pretty intrusive I guess |
| 22:13 |
est31 |
we should also discuss how to implement Voxel Area Entities |
| 22:13 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: something of note: after I did that /clearobjects, the server seems to be less-inclined to OOM-crash. mean anything to you? |
| 22:13 |
VanessaE |
it took 3 hours to run that command, btw. |
| 22:14 |
twoelk |
on VE-basic? |
| 22:14 |
VanessaE |
on VE-Survival. |
| 22:14 |
twoelk |
that's a lot of map to check |
| 22:14 |
TBC_x |
that change would also allow pretty sick single-world multi-server |
| 22:15 |
VanessaE |
TBC_x: single-world multi-server? as multiple servers on a single world? |
| 22:15 |
Sketch2 |
what if objects were stored in a seperate database? |
| 22:15 |
TBC_x |
VanessaE: yes |
| 22:16 |
Sketch2 |
then to clear objects would essentially just delete that file |
| 22:16 |
paramat |
VanessaE, after clearobjects do you get this bug #1397 ? |
| 22:16 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1397 -- Mapgen double-generating mapblocks, destroying user-built structures |
| 22:16 |
paramat |
currently it's not certain that bug still exists |
| 22:16 |
Sketch2 |
it would be nearly instant |
| 22:16 |
TBC_x |
and also smooth nexus implementation |
| 22:16 |
VanessaE |
paramat: I have never experienced that issue. |
| 22:17 |
VanessaE |
TBC_x: I like that idea indeed. |
| 22:17 |
est31 |
wtf is "smooth nexus" |
| 22:17 |
VanessaE |
est31: high-availability minetest servers |
| 22:17 |
paramat |
okay good |
| 22:17 |
VanessaE |
or that's how I read it anyway |
| 22:17 |
TBC_x |
nexus, an area from where you can access multiple worlds or servers |
| 22:17 |
VanessaE |
oh |
| 22:18 |
TBC_x |
and that could be done smoothly, so a player wouldn't even notice that he has been teleported |
| 22:18 |
twoelk |
ah so nexus is a mainmenu in disguise |
| 22:19 |
TBC_x |
well... If you have a server with multiple worlds... |
| 22:19 |
twoelk |
if you do it smoothly, when do you want to load all the media? |
| 22:19 |
est31 |
thats the problem indeed |
| 22:20 |
est31 |
all the initialisation and block sending needs to be done very fast |
| 22:20 |
est31 |
so that the user doesnt notice |
| 22:20 |
est31 |
right now its a slow mess |
| 22:21 |
TBC_x |
the best thing, all work is done server-side |
| 22:21 |
est31 |
right now, you need to wait for media to load even if you think things have been stored in cache |
| 22:21 |
est31 |
and should be fast |
| 22:21 |
twoelk |
if servers have different sets of mods it will always last longer than what can be called smooth |
| 22:21 |
est31 |
then the "initializing blocks" step |
| 22:21 |
est31 |
damn slow as well |
| 22:22 |
TBC_x |
one way is to load all media for all servers |
| 22:22 |
TBC_x |
which could work if the servers aren't that diverse |
| 22:23 |
VanessaE |
only way THAT could work is if servers submit their media to a central database that all clients try to read from |
| 22:24 |
TBC_x |
yes |
| 22:24 |
TBC_x |
that is in that draft, I should have mentioned it |
| 22:24 |
Sketch2 |
I mentioned it and got yelled at for it |
| 22:24 |
twoelk |
pff- everybody just needs to preload dreambuilder |
| 22:24 |
Sketch2 |
I was told it causes issues for the owner of the file server |
| 22:25 |
Sketch2 |
legal issues because they area liable for the content |
| 22:25 |
VanessaE |
twoelk: HAH! that would only cover maybe 1/10th of all the media out there :P |
| 22:25 |
TBC_x |
a torrent protocol would make sense here |
| 22:26 |
VanessaE |
suddenly, minetest is distributed on a DVD |
| 22:26 |
Sketch2 |
perhaps |
| 22:26 |
VanessaE |
torrent would make sense, yes |
| 22:26 |
Sketch2 |
I think the problem was that the files needed to be encrypted |
| 22:26 |
VanessaE |
but wouldn't really be any faster for a lot of people |
| 22:26 |
TBC_x |
yeah |
| 22:27 |
VanessaE |
imagine having to pull 200 MB of media on first-connect |
| 22:27 |
Sketch2 |
so that the keeper of said files would have no way of knowing what they were |
| 22:27 |
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| 22:27 |
paramat |
now merging #3119 |
| 22:27 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3119 -- Change ore chance in clusters by Gael-de-Sailly |
| 22:28 |
twoelk |
having a multiplayerworld over the internet where every player can change every node is sort of crazy from the start and might actually be some sort of hybris |
| 22:28 |
TBC_x |
MT needs a way of dynamic resource loading |
| 22:28 |
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| 22:29 |
est31 |
TBC_x, if you mean by "dynamic resource loading" that we do the "initializing blocks" step at first sight, and not at joining the game, I fully agree |
| 22:29 |
est31 |
it would be a way to avoid the problem |
| 22:29 |
est31 |
even the "loading media" step could be done at first sight |
| 22:30 |
Sketch2 |
or during low points |
| 22:30 |
TBC_x |
resources shoud be imho loaded in a similar way of mapblocks |
| 22:30 |
Sketch2 |
where the server isn't busy |
| 22:30 |
twoelk |
est31: btw are you aware of the auth.txt corruptions on the just test server (hoping my memory doesn't fail me and I am addressing the right dev)) |
| 22:31 |
est31 |
twoelk, auth.txt corruptions? |
| 22:31 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: ok, yeah. /clearobjects definitely improved the server fault. and my client FPS is a bit higher than usual, even at the spawn. |
| 22:32 |
twoelk |
yeah the auth.txt became useless 3 times by now which ended in a lot of nick hijacking |
| 22:32 |
TBC_x |
loaded and cached |
| 22:33 |
paramat |
merge complete |
| 22:33 |
est31 |
paramat, you realize 3119 did modify noise? |
| 22:33 |
est31 |
Ive thought this is bad, no? |
| 22:34 |
paramat |
erm |
| 22:34 |
est31 |
twoelk, might be a bug with saving files |
| 22:35 |
twoelk |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=188961&sid=8ebd9cc0352bbbc3a088d475ca9192c3#p188961 |
| 22:36 |
paramat |
3119 doesn't touch noise |
| 22:37 |
est31 |
ore noise |
| 22:37 |
est31 |
well, shrug |
| 22:37 |
est31 |
you know much more bout mapgen |
| 22:38 |
paramat |
all it does is fix a rounding bug |
| 22:38 |
est31 |
oh |
| 22:38 |
twoelk |
I think the auth.txt trouble on the Just-Test server began when the server updated to a version with the new password system |
| 22:38 |
paramat |
the number of pseudorandom calls is the same |
| 22:39 |
est31 |
and yeah, now as I read it it makes actual sense |
| 22:39 |
paramat |
phew cool |
| 22:40 |
est31 |
twoelk, does the just test server use latest minetest git, or does it use stable releases? |
| 22:40 |
est31 |
and how regularly does it update? |
| 22:40 |
est31 |
the new password system exists since months now |
| 22:42 |
est31 |
since 8dbf68331386f5f6a40ff0f0a77f5390bdca60b9 to be precise |
| 22:42 |
twoelk |
the problems on jt started around the beginning of august iirc |
| 22:42 |
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| 22:43 |
est31 |
does it appear after crashes/shutdown? |
| 22:43 |
est31 |
it might be that the file is incompletely written, when minetest crashes |
| 22:43 |
est31 |
and what are the precise symptoms? |
| 22:45 |
twoelk |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=186537#p186537 only mention of an update :( |
| 22:47 |
twoelk |
lag describes the corrupted auth.text 3 posts earlier |
| 22:48 |
est31 |
"Some accounts from beginning of original file are left, also some small number of records from rest of original file is randomly added to this." |
| 22:49 |
est31 |
hrmmm |
| 22:53 |
twoelk |
I think I heard of similar things on other servers but Just-Test is the only one I noticed the social drama caused by this issue. Might be because it is rather hardcore survival and therefore the chat is full of accusations of people hacking accounts. |
| 22:54 |
est31 |
it seems just test is an anarchy server, and there its more common to have accounts hijacked |
| 22:55 |
est31 |
but I wonder how that bug occurs |
| 22:56 |
est31 |
okay I guess celeron55 can deploy Calinou's website |
| 22:56 |
est31 |
I haven't heard anybody speaking against |
| 23:06 |
est31 |
hrmmm, I guess we should remove this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/script/lua_api/l_mainmenu.h#L122 what do you think Tesseract? |
| 23:07 |
est31 |
seems to be your fault from 8f9af57314f71aae1cc77e |
| 23:08 |
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| 23:10 |
twoelk |
I wouldn't say just test is anarchy but simply rather harsh |
| 23:14 |
est31 |
gonna push in 20 minutes: https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/a9f5126ee295adea9711830123b45d48663e1288 |
| 23:17 |
est31 |
okay reworded, look here instead https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/9c44aace4fce5f4b496201214d3215899f1481c3 |
| 23:34 |
est31 |
pushed |
| 23:35 |
paramat |
game#654 |
| 23:35 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/654 -- Default: Allow papyrus growing on sand group by paramat |
| 23:35 |
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