| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 03:33 |
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| 04:37 |
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| 06:42 |
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| 06:53 |
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| 06:53 |
Zeno` |
Hi all. Just here to hand in my official resignation |
| 06:54 |
Zeno` |
Maybe I shall return one day (I had a great time working with all the devs and other people on this project). I just don't seem to have the interest at the moment. *sigh* |
| 06:57 |
Zeno` |
Removed myself from the repo (You left minetest. You will be missed.) |
| 06:57 |
* Zeno` |
sheds a tear |
| 06:58 |
* Zeno` |
waves |
| 06:58 |
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| 07:05 |
kahrl |
nooo Zeno` :( |
| 07:05 |
* sofar |
waves back |
| 07:05 |
kahrl |
I hope it wasn't the Sisyphean nature of the irrlicht abstraction layer that burned you out |
| 07:18 |
sofar |
ho hum. why does minetest.get_meta() not return nil if the meta field isn't present? |
| 07:24 |
kahrl |
sofar: at the API level, node metadata is always considered present |
| 07:25 |
kahrl |
sofar: but it may be empty |
| 07:25 |
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| 07:25 |
kahrl |
(if it's empty, nothing will be stored in the database) |
| 07:25 |
sofar |
I'm getting a '0' back on nodes that don't have the property |
| 07:25 |
sofar |
so I can't use that to distinguish between nodes that have an int property set and ones that don't |
| 07:26 |
sofar |
I know the meta stuff is always present |
| 07:26 |
sofar |
this is about a specific int value inside the meta fields |
| 07:26 |
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| 07:26 |
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| 07:27 |
kahrl |
check if get_string(name) returns an empty string |
| 07:27 |
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| 07:27 |
sofar |
I'm sorry, I just had convulsions |
| 07:27 |
sofar |
lol |
| 07:28 |
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| 07:29 |
sofar |
I'd rather use '1' as minimal value then, doing a totally odd workaround like that... shudder (if it even works, that's hella ugly) |
| 07:29 |
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| 07:30 |
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| 07:31 |
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| 07:31 |
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| 07:32 |
kahrl |
I guess it would be nice to have a 'contains' method in NodeMetaRef |
| 07:32 |
kahrl |
(though it could technically implemented in lua using to_table(), that's quite wasteful) |
| 07:32 |
sofar |
I can see why you'd be worried about returning nil |
| 07:33 |
sofar |
probably break a few mods |
| 07:33 |
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| 07:33 |
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| 07:33 |
sofar |
maybe add warnings to the code if a property is asked that isn't present in the nodemetaref? |
| 07:33 |
kahrl |
yeah, changing the behaviour of get_int at this point is out of the question |
| 07:33 |
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| 07:35 |
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| 07:36 |
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| 07:36 |
kahrl |
warnings would just lead to warning spam, even though in most cases there's nothing wrong |
| 07:37 |
sofar |
if you think that returning a value for a requested field is OK, sure, then it's just spam |
| 07:37 |
sofar |
I'd argue that it's a bug |
| 07:37 |
|
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| 07:37 |
sofar |
or, bad programming of API's |
| 07:37 |
sofar |
maybe I'm too picky |
| 07:37 |
kahrl |
sofar: the API is what is has been for several years |
| 07:38 |
kahrl |
it can't be changed now since many mods rely on it |
| 07:38 |
sofar |
never changing an API means you never improve |
| 07:38 |
sofar |
but sure, I get it |
| 07:39 |
kahrl |
breaking every mod ever is not an improvement |
| 07:40 |
sofar |
without a warning you have no data that mods are relying on that behavior |
| 07:41 |
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| 07:41 |
sofar |
I'm not that well into the core code ... I suppose I can see if I can try it myself to add a warning |
| 07:41 |
kahrl |
it's inevitable with mods that rely heavily on node metadata, like technic |
| 07:41 |
kahrl |
(not saying that I checked that technic specifically relies on it) |
| 07:42 |
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| 07:42 |
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| 07:43 |
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| 07:45 |
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| 07:46 |
sofar |
hmm, NodeMetadataList::get() nicely returns NULL |
| 07:47 |
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| 07:47 |
sofar |
it's probably in the lua bindings then |
| 07:52 |
kahrl |
add haskell bindings to minetest and make get_int returns a Maybe Int :P |
| 07:52 |
kahrl |
return* |
| 07:52 |
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| 07:53 |
sofar |
ahahaha |
| 07:53 |
sofar |
someone was talking about javascript |
| 07:53 |
sofar |
tbh lua is fine... |
| 07:55 |
sofar |
it's too late for me to care... |
| 07:55 |
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| 08:44 |
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| 09:04 |
realbadangel__ |
mods like technic are using meta a lot |
| 09:04 |
realbadangel__ |
pipeworks and mesecons too |
| 09:05 |
realbadangel__ |
and those are the most complex mods for mt out there |
| 09:14 |
realbadangel__ |
breakin api will piss lotsa folks |
| 09:29 |
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| 11:55 |
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| 15:23 |
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| 15:42 |
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| 15:42 |
est31 |
bye Zeno. |
| 15:45 |
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| 15:53 |
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| 16:01 |
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| 16:30 |
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| 16:32 |
est31 |
:( |
| 16:32 |
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| 16:34 |
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| 16:55 |
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| 17:01 |
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| 17:29 |
VanessaE_ |
sorry to see you go, Zeno` :( |
| 17:49 |
hmmmm |
ahhh noo zeno` :( |
| 17:50 |
hmmmm |
lol I guess we're not getting a graphics engine-independent minetest |
| 17:50 |
hmmmm |
back to the drawing board... |
| 17:52 |
VanessaE_ |
well I guess the bright side there is that by now, it would have been such a big rebase effort that someone would have to rewrite it anyway. |
| 17:55 |
who_wants_some |
minetest development pace is too fast |
| 17:55 |
who_wants_some |
sorry, wrong channel! |
| 18:09 |
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| 18:11 |
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| 18:34 |
realbadangel__ |
est31, i have analyzed the possibilities, only solution is real client side modding |
| 18:34 |
realbadangel__ |
and im not experienced enough on that field to introduce it |
| 18:35 |
realbadangel__ |
jeija on the other hand made a PR with proof of concept |
| 18:35 |
realbadangel__ |
https://github.com/Jeija/minetest/tree/clientside_mods |
| 18:36 |
realbadangel__ |
if somebody make this in, i can move further with client side shaders |
| 18:37 |
realbadangel__ |
atm i dont wanna invent another override file |
| 18:38 |
realbadangel__ |
ive read the code for all overriding stuff, like noise, textures |
| 18:39 |
realbadangel__ |
all is just wrestling, freestyle |
| 18:39 |
realbadangel__ |
imho real client side mods are the only solution |
| 18:41 |
Calinou |
yeah, we should have it some day |
| 18:41 |
Calinou |
even Quake modders eventually stopped doing everything server-side |
| 18:41 |
Calinou |
they introduced CSQC ;) |
| 18:41 |
Calinou |
and now they cram more and more things into it |
| 18:42 |
Calinou |
(because clients are often more powerful than servers…) |
| 18:42 |
realbadangel__ |
ofc clients are more powerfull |
| 18:42 |
realbadangel__ |
we do buy ROG boxes |
| 18:43 |
realbadangel__ |
or build them on our own |
| 18:43 |
|
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| 18:43 |
realbadangel__ |
server can run on a hostin space |
| 18:43 |
realbadangel__ |
client is about performance and FPS |
| 18:44 |
realbadangel__ |
and NICE lookin |
| 18:45 |
Calinou |
my VPS is 1 CPU (2 GHz), 1 GB RAM |
| 18:45 |
Calinou |
my laptop is 8 threads (4C/8T), 8 GB RAM, and a dedicated card… |
| 18:45 |
who_wants_some |
my fear is when it becomes client-side now the clients will have even more bad stutters |
| 18:45 |
who_wants_some |
or crashes |
| 18:45 |
Calinou |
that's the server owner's problem if they distribute poorly performing mods |
| 18:46 |
Calinou |
crashes are preventable, but work needs to be done on that |
| 18:46 |
realbadangel__ |
who_wants_some, when we will have client side modding you will get mobs, carts etc |
| 18:46 |
realbadangel__ |
with no lags |
| 18:46 |
realbadangel__ |
atm its impossible |
| 18:46 |
who_wants_some |
I hope |
| 18:47 |
who_wants_some |
please fix liquids over ignore and slow mesh gen that causes big stutters (ap-tly) |
| 18:48 |
realbadangel__ |
liquids flow is not my area of interest at all |
| 18:48 |
realbadangel__ |
i mean physics |
| 18:48 |
realbadangel__ |
i do gfx only |
| 18:49 |
who_wants_some |
texture tear problems *cough* |
| 18:49 |
who_wants_some |
or 3166 |
| 18:49 |
realbadangel__ |
thats hardware |
| 18:49 |
realbadangel__ |
and 3166? ooops ;) |
| 18:49 |
realbadangel__ |
im stuck |
| 18:49 |
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| 19:05 |
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| 19:05 |
|
Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Last release: 0.4.13, Aug 20 2015. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/ |
| 19:05 |
who_wants_some |
he is stuck |
| 19:05 |
who_wants_some |
he needs some new idea from outside |
| 19:05 |
who_wants_some |
"suggestion" |
| 19:06 |
|
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| 19:06 |
RealBadAngel |
i know how it should work, but i dont know how to code it |
| 19:07 |
RealBadAngel |
i started the work, its far enough to be considered a workin solution |
| 19:07 |
RealBadAngel |
it just have some flaws which i cant fix atm |
| 19:07 |
VanessaE_ |
it works, it improves things, and doesn't break anything, right? |
| 19:07 |
VanessaE_ |
and nothing is worse off |
| 19:08 |
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| 19:08 |
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| 19:08 |
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| 19:08 |
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| 19:08 |
VanessaE_ |
then it should be merged. The double-update can be solved later. |
| 19:08 |
RealBadAngel |
propably i could but with spending lotsa time which i could use to develop other things |
| 19:08 |
VanessaE_ |
better two nodes' worth of updates than 7 entire mapblocks |
| 19:09 |
RealBadAngel |
i gave up dancing with double-update and picked shaders again |
| 19:09 |
VanessaE_ |
hmmmm: ^^^^^ |
| 19:09 |
who_wants_some |
that is slow |
| 19:09 |
RealBadAngel |
so in two days i made mod definitions of shader use |
| 19:09 |
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| 19:09 |
RealBadAngel |
you can try now water and lava |
| 19:10 |
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| 19:10 |
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| 19:10 |
RealBadAngel |
somebody already said that lava is "piece of art" |
| 19:10 |
est31 |
yippee server is up |
| 19:10 |
RealBadAngel |
and i really think it is |
| 19:11 |
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| 19:11 |
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| 19:11 |
RealBadAngel |
just compile and watch it :P |
| 19:11 |
est31 |
I try to keep out of these discussions |
| 19:11 |
est31 |
some will love it, some will hate it |
| 19:11 |
rubenwardy |
Calinou, putting more code client side is bad if it makes the server vulnerable to cheating |
| 19:11 |
est31 |
well, it depends |
| 19:11 |
est31 |
if the server side code trusts the inputs, then yes. |
| 19:11 |
RealBadAngel |
est31, can you take a look on Jeija's client side modding proof of concept? |
| 19:11 |
est31 |
that code is years old |
| 19:11 |
rubenwardy |
est31, "makes the server vulnerable to cheating" |
| 19:12 |
RealBadAngel |
est31, it works |
| 19:12 |
rubenwardy |
it works doesn't mean it's good |
| 19:12 |
RealBadAngel |
code doesnt have age |
| 19:12 |
rubenwardy |
hmmmm was working on a prototype |
| 19:12 |
RealBadAngel |
it works or not |
| 19:12 |
rubenwardy |
but he stopped for some reason - fixing stuff elsewhere |
| 19:12 |
rubenwardy |
celeron55 wanted to do it after farview |
| 19:12 |
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| 19:13 |
rubenwardy |
RealBadAngel, it's not black or white. |
| 19:13 |
RealBadAngel |
but neither its grey |
| 19:13 |
rubenwardy |
if something "works" but it's unreliable, then it might as well not work |
| 19:13 |
RealBadAngel |
or at least it shouldnt |
| 19:14 |
who_wants_some |
server needs some cheating protection already, there are hacked clients already :( |
| 19:14 |
RealBadAngel |
atm development is stuck |
| 19:14 |
Calinou |
rubenwardy, obviously it's not going to be cheat-sensitive code |
| 19:14 |
Calinou |
but Minetest is pretty vulnerable to cheating as it is right now |
| 19:14 |
rubenwardy |
who_wants_some, fly and fast are vulnerability |
| 19:14 |
RealBadAngel |
see? |
| 19:14 |
est31 |
fast is no vulnerability |
| 19:14 |
est31 |
you can just adjust the speed setting |
| 19:14 |
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| 19:14 |
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| 19:14 |
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| 19:14 |
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| 19:14 |
rubenwardy |
because the server doesn't do proper client-side prediction and server reconcilliation |
| 19:14 |
RealBadAngel |
we are all needing help from each other |
| 19:14 |
rubenwardy |
yes, to cheating |
| 19:14 |
who_wants_some |
rubenwardy, so server needs to check player movement anyway |
| 19:14 |
Calinou |
est31, everyone disables anticheat actually :P |
| 19:15 |
Calinou |
it's buggy, constantly resets innocent players |
| 19:15 |
rubenwardy |
anticheat isn't real server side reconcilliation |
| 19:15 |
est31 |
Calinou, then dont complain that minetest doesnt have anti-cheat |
| 19:15 |
est31 |
but that its anti-cheat is buggy |
| 19:15 |
est31 |
those are different things |
| 19:15 |
est31 |
but yeah fly and noclip still remains |
| 19:16 |
hmmmm |
i think anticheat should be a mod |
| 19:16 |
rubenwardy |
Why? |
| 19:16 |
hmmmm |
it's ancilliary functionality to begin with |
| 19:17 |
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| 19:17 |
hmmmm |
its inclusion into the core implies that minetest is a "game" where people can "cheat" whereas really that all depends on the modpack installed |
| 19:17 |
RealBadAngel |
i think we have started a storm in a glass of water |
| 19:17 |
RealBadAngel |
hi Taoki :) |
| 19:54 |
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| 19:54 |
|
Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Last release: 0.4.13, Aug 20 2015. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/ |
| 19:54 |
rubenwardy |
I agree that farview as it is last time I used it looked out of place. But, WIP |
| 19:56 |
hmmmm |
[02:44 PM] <RealBadAngel> c55 and hmmmm are too fucused on pure code, both treating it as kinda excercise, to show own abilities |
| 19:56 |
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| 19:56 |
hmmmm |
no, it's because I realize that talking about things is useless because the code is not getting done |
| 19:56 |
hmmmm |
minetest is a big project for sure but it needs even more development |
| 19:57 |
hmmmm |
talking is bad because it makes you feel like you're accomplishing something when you aren't |
| 19:57 |
est31 |
it looked great IMO last time I looked at it, just had two bugs. |
| 19:58 |
est31 |
first is hard to describe |
| 19:58 |
est31 |
I guess some driver thingy or so |
| 19:58 |
est31 |
second is that it allocates tons of memory |
| 19:58 |
est31 |
but the second was promised to get fixed |
| 20:00 |
who_wants_some_ |
est31, is it possible to upload to GPU not 40 meshes in very limited time (causing big stutter), but spread them over time, so stutter is say 1ms per each rendered frame? |
| 20:01 |
RealBadAngel |
hmmmm, for the single commiter thats nearly impossible now to get something done without touchin a few other areas of experitse |
| 20:01 |
RealBadAngel |
and thats what im talkin about |
| 20:02 |
who_wants_some_ |
est31, i've tried very simple flatgen mod and I still got pretty big stutter when new meshes generated (if trust F5 graphs), it is basically 15ms -> 30ms -> 15ms (that is too big and not acceptable) |
| 20:03 |
RealBadAngel |
i can know everything about shaders (and i know that you dont know a single shit bout it). and vice versa, im trying to get something done in threads and all i get are lols |
| 20:03 |
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| 20:04 |
RealBadAngel |
even when what i did to get my idea workin was copy paste of existing already solutions |
| 20:04 |
est31 |
yea I guess the shaders I did were shit too. |
| 20:05 |
est31 |
and your shaders are great |
| 20:05 |
RealBadAngel |
hah, i could do better :P |
| 20:05 |
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| 20:06 |
RealBadAngel |
but seriously est31 what shaders code you made? |
| 20:06 |
RealBadAngel |
no offence, just asking |
| 20:07 |
est31 |
tbh I haven't coded any real shaders yet |
| 20:08 |
RealBadAngel |
so what have you meant? |
| 20:08 |
hmmmm |
real developers don't pidgeonhole themselves into a single technology subset |
| 20:08 |
RealBadAngel |
we are not real |
| 20:08 |
hmmmm |
saying that you can't do threads but you can do shaders is ridiculous |
| 20:09 |
hmmmm |
you are not real maybe |
| 20:09 |
RealBadAngel |
well i am, sort of, a nick name :P |
| 20:09 |
est31 |
I have expressed wrongly, it should have been "the shaders I would do would be shit" |
| 20:09 |
est31 |
haha |
| 20:09 |
RealBadAngel |
est31, you have tested water and lava |
| 20:10 |
RealBadAngel |
can u express your opinion now? |
| 20:10 |
RealBadAngel |
and here |
| 20:11 |
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| 20:11 |
est31 |
I said its nice, but I dont know whether it should be the standard shader. |
| 20:11 |
who_wants_some_ |
is someone has binaries for windows with new shaders, pls share with me, i want to see it on ati |
| 20:12 |
RealBadAngel |
those are not standard shaders |
| 20:13 |
RealBadAngel |
could be if mt would go HD and fine lookin |
| 20:13 |
who_wants_some_ |
and slow working |
| 20:13 |
RealBadAngel |
theyre pretty fast |
| 20:14 |
RealBadAngel |
and moreover they eliminate some nasty visual bugs |
| 20:14 |
RealBadAngel |
like different looking of block with same texture |
| 20:15 |
RealBadAngel |
+s |
| 20:15 |
RealBadAngel |
point of my latest PR is that, any node can have own shader |
| 20:16 |
RealBadAngel |
independent from the engine at all |
| 20:16 |
who_wants_some_ |
that is useful |
| 20:17 |
RealBadAngel |
i wanted it first to be able to send shader code over net as a mod |
| 20:17 |
RealBadAngel |
i dont think that could be a security problem but whatever |
| 20:17 |
RealBadAngel |
client side modification pack is better place for it |
| 20:18 |
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| 20:18 |
RealBadAngel |
client is having good box and gpu, then hes choosing candies |
| 20:18 |
RealBadAngel |
no matter the server |
| 20:21 |
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| 20:27 |
RealBadAngel |
so, for starters, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3391 |
| 20:27 |
RealBadAngel |
what are your votes? |
| 20:28 |
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| 20:30 |
RealBadAngel |
above pull with will need client side modding for the feature to be complete ofc |
| 20:31 |
RealBadAngel |
but both sides will require those definitions |
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Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Last release: 0.4.13, Aug 20 2015. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/ |
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RealBadAngel |
splitty day, i will ask again tomorrow ;) |
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