| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:11 |
|
Fixer joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:15 |
Hijiri |
what do formspecs use all the node metadata for? |
| 00:15 |
Hijiri |
I know the formspec field and the meta inventory are used |
| 00:16 |
|
paramat joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:21 |
paramat |
APNG you will not get anywhere by insulting us and giving orders, maybe code it yourself? |
| 00:21 |
|
paramat left #minetest-dev |
| 01:05 |
|
est31 joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:08 |
est31 |
btw, the topic of #lua also includes the text " Pay no attention to Soni/cat5e " |
| 01:09 |
est31 |
(Soni == APNG == cat5e) |
| 01:09 |
|
hmmmmmm joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:10 |
APNG |
and that's why I don't like to touch lua projects >.> |
| 01:10 |
APNG |
(unless they're from tim caswell) |
| 01:10 |
est31 |
APNG, I'm sure you earned it |
| 01:11 |
APNG |
(then again most tim caswell things don't compile correctly... >.>) |
| 01:11 |
est31 |
APNG, if you would be more respectful with people, maybe they would listen to your suggestions |
| 01:12 |
|
hmmmm joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:12 |
APNG |
est31, it's hard to be nice when you have a deadline |
| 01:12 |
est31 |
APNG, ?? |
| 01:13 |
APNG |
est31, unlike the things I tried to do with luvit, this thing has a deadline |
| 01:13 |
APNG |
which's why I'm giving orders |
| 01:13 |
est31 |
why does minetest have a deadline |
| 01:13 |
APNG |
no, not minetest |
| 01:13 |
APNG |
my mod |
| 01:14 |
APNG |
also, I don't touch C++, so unless you want me to shove C in your C++, you probably don't want me to touch your C++ |
| 01:14 |
APNG |
so my only options are to give orders or to hire someone to do C++ for me, and I don't have any money |
| 01:15 |
est31 |
or you could just kindly *ask* |
| 01:15 |
APNG |
est31, well... how can I get things done before my deadline? |
| 01:15 |
est31 |
if your mod has a deadline for whatever reason possible, being kind will get you much farther than being as arrogant as you act atm |
| 01:17 |
APNG |
<APNG> can I set custom item names?<+sofar> not currently, no<APNG> can you fix that?<APNG> because I kinda need it |
| 01:17 |
APNG |
tbh, I did ask... |
| 01:18 |
|
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| 01:19 |
est31 |
well you still can develop in APNG and then write a converter to minetest's format |
| 01:20 |
APNG |
that doesn't solve the texture pack problem, or the per-frame delay problem |
| 01:20 |
APNG |
(apparently you can't have per-frame delay or something) |
| 01:22 |
est31 |
the per frame delay issue can be solved differently as well |
| 01:23 |
est31 |
for example by extending the timing specified by lua |
| 01:23 |
|
hmmmm joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:23 |
APNG |
or, alternatively, APNG |
| 01:23 |
APNG |
which's a lot easier to support on the client and fully backwards-compatible (just ignore frame timings on the client) |
| 01:24 |
|
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| 01:25 |
est31 |
is there even a library that supports apng |
| 01:25 |
est31 |
as it seems official libpng doesnt include it |
| 01:25 |
APNG |
yes |
| 01:25 |
APNG |
uh let me find it |
| 01:25 |
est31 |
we'd have to add a new mandatory dependency to minetest, that's a big undertaking |
| 01:25 |
APNG |
(I forgot the name .-.) |
| 01:26 |
APNG |
est31, doesn't libpng let you parse custom chunks? just extract the APNG chunks and make in-memory PNGs so you can extract the frames |
| 01:26 |
APNG |
anyway |
| 01:26 |
APNG |
it's called Gecko |
| 01:27 |
|
hmmmmm joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:27 |
est31 |
oh you are trolling right? |
| 01:27 |
est31 |
gecko is an html rendering engine |
| 01:27 |
APNG |
Gecko can parse APNGs and it comes in lib format |
| 01:28 |
APNG |
it can do more than just HTML rendering |
| 01:28 |
est31 |
and it is gigantic |
| 01:28 |
est31 |
not suited for minetest |
| 01:29 |
Warr1024 |
Gecko is not gigantic. Gigantic things are small next to Gecko. |
| 01:29 |
|
hmmmm joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:29 |
est31 |
but only because it can climb the trump tower! |
| 01:29 |
est31 |
:) |
| 01:29 |
APNG |
anyway, apparently you can just do this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2568912/how-do-i-read-an-arbitrary-chunk-from-a-png-file |
| 01:30 |
APNG |
if enough ppl adopt full APNG support then it'll be easier to make APNG official |
| 01:30 |
Warr1024 |
Why is apng even a thing? Whatever even happened to mng? Wasn't that supposed to do the same thing, but not be some obscure feature hidden in only some png handlers? |
| 01:31 |
est31 |
idk |
| 01:31 |
APNG |
Warr1024, MNG is APNG on steroids, I like to call it "spritesheet-oriented APNG" |
| 01:31 |
Warr1024 |
ah. steroids would probably be harder to support in principle |
| 01:31 |
APNG |
because that's basically how it works, you have subsections of an image and you shove a bunch of animations in the same image |
| 01:32 |
Warr1024 |
though if there's a reasonably good lib out there, maybe it's a route... |
| 01:32 |
APNG |
where each animation is a whole MNG stored in a chunk |
| 01:32 |
APNG |
so it's basically a file inside a file, and parsing such recursive things is uh... |
| 01:32 |
APNG |
painful... |
| 01:32 |
APNG |
so it never gained widespread adoption |
| 01:33 |
Warr1024 |
but if there is a libmng which is not painful to integrate, and apng->mng converters, it may be a shortcut to solve your need |
| 01:33 |
APNG |
APNG is simple tho |
| 01:33 |
Warr1024 |
apng cannot be simple because png is not really simple |
| 01:33 |
APNG |
oh, and MNG also puts whole JPEGs inside it |
| 01:34 |
Warr1024 |
libpng doesn't support apng? |
| 01:34 |
est31 |
no |
| 01:34 |
APNG |
so in addition to parsing MNGs and PNGs (because MNG uses some things from PNG), you also need to handle JPEGs |
| 01:35 |
APNG |
cool, eh? |
| 01:35 |
Warr1024 |
jpeg support in mt is not an entirely unreasonable thing to add |
| 01:35 |
APNG |
ಠ_ಠ|
| 01:36 |
APNG |
uh I guess some ppl enjoy JPEG artifacts :/ |
| 01:36 |
Warr1024 |
jpeg still occupies a use niche which does not 100% intersect png's |
| 01:36 |
APNG |
unless you're using like 512x512 textures, I don't see why you'd want JPEG |
| 01:37 |
est31 |
I think that jpeg doesnt really fit for minetest |
| 01:37 |
Warr1024 |
...which is pretty much how some others feel about apng |
| 01:37 |
Warr1024 |
I did try to animate skins once though |
| 01:37 |
Warr1024 |
it did kind of sucl |
| 01:37 |
Warr1024 |
s/.$/k/ |
| 01:38 |
APNG |
Warr1024, minetest already uses .png |
| 01:39 |
Warr1024 |
yes, and it seems good enough for most users... |
| 01:39 |
APNG |
the overall file format is the same, so supporting APNG is uh how can I call it... |
| 01:39 |
APNG |
it's not really trivial but uh |
| 01:39 |
est31 |
you just have to modify libpng, nothing easier than that |
| 01:39 |
APNG |
it's backwards compatible? sort of |
| 01:40 |
APNG |
est31, you don't have to modify libpng |
| 01:40 |
est31 |
plus probably irrlicht as well |
| 01:40 |
OldCoder |
apng is a png patch |
| 01:40 |
* OldCoder |
does this |
| 01:40 |
* OldCoder |
can test the patch and make a PR if it works |
| 01:40 |
OldCoder |
Will this help? |
| 01:40 |
Warr1024 |
the term is "non-trivial". there's even a tag for it in mt's github issue tracker. |
| 01:40 |
APNG |
you don't have to modify libpng |
| 01:40 |
APNG |
Warr1024, I'm not talking about non-trivial or trivial, I'm talking about something else |
| 01:41 |
* OldCoder |
seems to remember a patch. APNG what changes are needed, then? |
| 01:41 |
est31 |
OldCoder, you mean this patch? https://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/media/libpng/apng.patch |
| 01:41 |
APNG |
well |
| 01:41 |
APNG |
you can do this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2568912/how-do-i-read-an-arbitrary-chunk-from-a-png-file |
| 01:41 |
OldCoder |
Reviewing |
| 01:41 |
APNG |
do it a few times to retrieve all the APNG chunks |
| 01:41 |
est31 |
That *does* require modification of libpng |
| 01:41 |
APNG |
est31, it does? |
| 01:41 |
est31 |
which we are not going to do |
| 01:42 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, it seems like libpng would have support for some pieces of this, and most of what would be needed to load is just glue |
| 01:42 |
APNG |
est31, are we reading the same thing? |
| 01:42 |
OldCoder |
est31, APNG I use a different patch. But perhaps they do the same thing. |
| 01:42 |
Warr1024 |
going from loading to actually displaying in thr necessary places would probably be more tricky |
| 01:42 |
APNG |
loading is easy |
| 01:42 |
APNG |
displaying is easy |
| 01:43 |
APNG |
the abstractions in between may be a pain depending on the current code >.> |
| 01:43 |
Warr1024 |
apng: if you know c but not c++, it's not a huge barrier to contributing. |
| 01:43 |
Warr1024 |
C++ is just a superset, really; I |
| 01:43 |
APNG |
(seriously don't hardcode this shit, use a parser-and-consumer model) |
| 01:43 |
APNG |
Warr1024, no thanks, C++ sucks |
| 01:43 |
Warr1024 |
ve contribbed code which is definitely more C than C++ |
| 01:44 |
est31 |
minetest is very c like in many parts |
| 01:44 |
APNG |
est31, then why the C++? |
| 01:44 |
Warr1024 |
"C++ sucks" doesn't get your feature done the way you want, either. |
| 01:44 |
est31 |
because its only c like not written in c |
| 01:44 |
APNG |
but why? |
| 01:45 |
APNG |
why's C++ somehow better? |
| 01:45 |
Warr1024 |
just hold your breath, dive in, and wash the ++ off yourself after :-) |
| 01:45 |
APNG |
you can't use try/catch if you want it to run in emscripten |
| 01:46 |
APNG |
and other than templates there's not much of a reason to use C++ |
| 01:46 |
est31 |
APNG, in c you cant use try/catch either because there is no try/catch |
| 01:46 |
est31 |
templates are one of the ugliest parts of c++ in my eyes |
| 01:46 |
OldCoder |
C++ vs. C is for other forums and times... what is the proposed change presently? |
| 01:47 |
est31 |
OldCoder, APNG wants minetest to adopt the APNG image format |
| 01:47 |
APNG |
altho that's not my top priority |
| 01:47 |
APNG |
my top priority is custom item names |
| 01:48 |
APNG |
either as an addition to what we currently have (trivial) or as a replacement of the itemstack metadata system (non-trivial and backwards-incompatible) |
| 01:49 |
APNG |
the trivial option might be easier to get merged |
| 01:50 |
APNG |
but it's also uglier |
| 01:51 |
thePalindrome |
I still say flif :P |
| 01:51 |
Hijiri |
probably it won't get merged because there is some work on better metadata systems |
| 01:51 |
est31 |
thePalindrome, ++ |
| 01:51 |
thePalindrome |
Just as soon as it's done :P |
| 01:51 |
est31 |
thePalindrome, but blocker issue is that it gets stabilized AND that it gets a spec written |
| 01:51 |
thePalindrome |
It has a spec written, it's just unstable |
| 01:51 |
Hijiri |
item metadata is much closer than client side scripting but people still disagree with features that would be special cases of client-side scripting |
| 01:52 |
Hijiri |
so probably the same would happen for a specialized item name thing |
| 01:52 |
thePalindrome |
Indeed |
| 01:54 |
thePalindrome |
Well, things like this are why I want to work more on mintest :P |
| 01:55 |
OldCoder |
Lost connection |
| 01:55 |
OldCoder |
Missed any response |
| 01:55 |
OldCoder |
In case my text was lost: |
| 01:55 |
OldCoder |
<OldCoder> APNG, are you proposing apng support without libpng changes? |
| 01:55 |
OldCoder |
<OldCoder> By moving some of the functionality into MT? If so, shall we produce a PR so that there is something concrete to present? |
| 01:55 |
OldCoder |
|
| 01:56 |
est31 |
thePalindrome, it has? |
| 01:56 |
est31 |
thePalindrome, links or it didnt happen |
| 01:56 |
thePalindrome |
Yeah, lemme grab it |
| 01:57 |
thePalindrome |
At the very least a reference build has been made |
| 01:58 |
thePalindrome |
I realize now you might not call that a "spec" :P |
| 01:58 |
thePalindrome |
https://uprootlabs.github.io/poly-flif |
| 01:58 |
thePalindrome |
There's a polyfill |
| 01:58 |
est31 |
thats not a spec |
| 01:58 |
est31 |
a spec is a document people can use to write implementations with |
| 01:58 |
|
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| 01:58 |
APNG |
flif sounds stupid imo |
| 01:58 |
|
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| 01:58 |
thePalindrome |
and apng doesn't? :P |
| 01:59 |
OldCoder |
est31, APNG the question is... can apng support be added without modifying libpng if libpng mods are forbidden? |
| 01:59 |
thePalindrome |
It outperforms apng at least :shrug: |
| 01:59 |
OldCoder |
Hm |
| 01:59 |
est31 |
OldCoder, I'm wondering on that as well |
| 01:59 |
APNG |
thePalindrome, it doesn't promise to be good at all the things |
| 01:59 |
OldCoder |
Could libpng be added to MT? License IIRC is open |
| 01:59 |
est31 |
OldCoder, thats not the way to do it, it would be a terrible hack. |
| 01:59 |
est31 |
apng is not needed that much |
| 02:00 |
est31 |
plus we'd need to maintain it |
| 02:00 |
APNG |
OldCoder, you can support apng without modifying libpng |
| 02:00 |
OldCoder |
So, it comes down to the question of what is involved to support apng |
| 02:00 |
OldCoder |
APNG, go on |
| 02:00 |
est31 |
imagine if a CVE is in libpng, we'd need to release a hot patch |
| 02:00 |
est31 |
etc etc |
| 02:00 |
OldCoder |
If you can explain how elsewhere |
| 02:00 |
OldCoder |
est31, right |
| 02:00 |
APNG |
apng is final |
| 02:00 |
OldCoder |
If you can explain how elsewhere, I can prepare a PR |
| 02:00 |
APNG |
so all you have to do is extract the APNG chunks (see the stackoverflow I linked), parse them, then process them |
| 02:00 |
OldCoder |
OK |
| 02:01 |
OldCoder |
Do you know enough 'C' to do this? |
| 02:01 |
OldCoder |
Shall we prepare a pull request? |
| 02:01 |
thePalindrome |
Although why do we need animated texture, can the engine even do that? |
| 02:01 |
est31 |
thePalindrome, the engine already has a format for animated textures |
| 02:01 |
thePalindrome |
APNG: http://flif.info/animation.html |
| 02:01 |
OldCoder |
It is an interesting idea. The key questions may not be answered though until the code can be reviewed. |
| 02:02 |
APNG |
thePalindrome, the engine already does animated textures, but it has fixed framerate IIRC and framerate is set by the server |
| 02:02 |
est31 |
and minetest is not a game about adding as much formats as possible |
| 02:02 |
thePalindrome |
Ah, I see |
| 02:02 |
* thePalindrome |
ponders |
| 02:02 |
est31 |
adding a new format needs to make sense, and in this case I'd say we should wait for flif to become stable and then make the descision |
| 02:02 |
est31 |
if we support apng we cant go back, because of compat reasons |
| 02:02 |
thePalindrome |
^ |
| 02:02 |
OldCoder |
est31, explain |
| 02:02 |
* OldCoder |
is curious |
| 02:03 |
OldCoder |
Can't have both? |
| 02:03 |
OldCoder |
Assuming libpng doesn't need to be modified |
| 02:03 |
APNG |
est31, thankfully it's a client-side only change |
| 02:03 |
est31 |
<est31> and minetest is not a game about adding as much formats as possible |
| 02:03 |
OldCoder |
est31, right, but the question is, why "can't go back" ? |
| 02:04 |
est31 |
OldCoder, because clients should be able to load legacy mods/games/ connect to legacy servers |
| 02:04 |
OldCoder |
est31, you mean, you could not drop apng support |
| 02:04 |
OldCoder |
once added |
| 02:04 |
est31 |
yes |
| 02:04 |
OldCoder |
Right, this is true. IMHO key question... which needs a PR to discuss... is what is the code to do this really like? |
| 02:04 |
APNG |
est31, and that's a pain because it means you're stuck in legacy forever |
| 02:05 |
OldCoder |
APNG, I would suggest attempting to produce a branch with the feature for review |
| 02:05 |
APNG |
do it the MC way and break things every 0.x version |
| 02:05 |
OldCoder |
Um, no :-) |
| 02:05 |
* OldCoder |
does not want his worlds to die |
| 02:05 |
APNG |
OldCoder, they wouldn't die thanks to git history |
| 02:06 |
OldCoder |
APNG, not the forum for this part, but if you mean, servers no longer support old worlds, no, thanks |
| 02:06 |
est31 |
Either way, if its really just a small patch and doable without modifying libpng OR irrlicht I might consider supporting the change |
| 02:06 |
OldCoder |
See my suggestion though |
| 02:06 |
OldCoder |
APNG, ^ that is what you will get for today |
| 02:06 |
OldCoder |
I will help you to prepare an apng branch if you like |
| 02:06 |
APNG |
est31, well, can you use libpng directly? |
| 02:07 |
est31 |
APNG, i dont know the details, but I think minetest has access to libpng directly, yes |
| 02:07 |
OldCoder |
No reason it wouldn't |
| 02:07 |
est31 |
so libpng header is includeable, etc |
| 02:07 |
Hijiri |
what if you can convert it to the animation format we have now? |
| 02:07 |
APNG |
so can you refactor the whole rendering code so it separates "parsing" and "displaying"? |
| 02:07 |
OldCoder |
Hijiri, on the fly, you mean? |
| 02:07 |
Hijiri |
when the client recieves it |
| 02:08 |
Hijiri |
oh wait |
| 02:08 |
Hijiri |
that doesn't make sense, animations don't exist then |
| 02:08 |
* OldCoder |
has a meeting elsewhere. He offers to help APNG prepare a branch if there is a specific small patch to make. |
| 02:08 |
OldCoder |
Hijiri, there is an animation format |
| 02:08 |
OldCoder |
Limited |
| 02:08 |
APNG |
(that way we can turn APNGs into the internal format, as well as legacy animations into the same internal format) |
| 02:08 |
est31 |
APNG, thats a reasonable change and I would support it but i dont do it for you sorry |
| 02:08 |
Hijiri |
I mean animations aren't sent at asset send time |
| 02:08 |
Hijiri |
because they're made dynamically |
| 02:09 |
est31 |
APNG, if you find someone to do it for you it can be added, even independently from whether to use apng or not |
| 02:09 |
OldCoder |
Right, mods do this in sprites |
| 02:09 |
APNG |
(actually, why not add client-side scripting and add all those features to client-side mods?) |
| 02:09 |
Hijiri |
it could cache the conversions |
| 02:09 |
Hijiri |
maybe at asset send time |
| 02:09 |
OldCoder |
got to go, APNG I am offering to try to help with some of this, PM me again |
| 02:09 |
Hijiri |
but that's more work than just converting |
| 02:10 |
APNG |
well you're still gonna parse it one way or another |
| 02:10 |
APNG |
also graphical changes don't affect the ability to load worlds, especially since it's APNG which has a PNG fallback |
| 02:10 |
est31 |
GTG as well |
| 02:10 |
APNG |
(static image) |
| 02:10 |
Hijiri |
I just mean if we tried to glue it onto the existing system |
| 02:11 |
APNG |
so APNG support can be added or removed anytime |
| 02:12 |
thePalindrome |
Oh yeah, forgot about that |
| 02:15 |
APNG |
so yeah, go ahead and add APNG support! if it becomes an issue, just remove it! everything will still work just fine, except animations won't play, but that's not a significant issue |
| 02:16 |
APNG |
I need to go sleep... |
| 02:16 |
APNG |
good night o/ |
| 02:16 |
thePalindrome |
Not that I really have much sway here, but I don't see anything to lose here, so why not? |
| 02:16 |
thePalindrome |
/) |
| 02:35 |
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| 02:39 |
OldCoder |
May I inquire, is there anything in the core, as opposed to mod-level features such as lifetimers, that despawns (erases) entities? |
| 02:39 |
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| 02:39 |
OldCoder |
Once an entity is created, at the core level, is there any reason it would not last forever? |
| 02:44 |
sofar |
I'm fairly sure they are destroyed at a certain point |
| 02:44 |
sofar |
I think even handles are recycled |
| 02:44 |
KaadmY |
o |
| 02:44 |
KaadmY |
oops |
| 02:49 |
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| 04:25 |
OldCoder |
sofar, thank you; is there a timer of some sort internally? Are you saying that mobs can't be immortal? |
| 04:39 |
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| 05:19 |
Hijiri |
entities can be deleted if there are too many in a chunk (block?) |
| 05:53 |
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| 07:32 |
red-001 |
could something be done about #3900 ? |
| 07:32 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3900 -- Add a button for disabling all mods to world config. by red-001 |
| 07:41 |
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| 07:42 |
Hijiri |
usually a feature won't get written unless someone who can write the code also cares about it |
| 07:42 |
Hijiri |
cares enough to write it, at least |
| 07:43 |
Hijiri |
cares enough to write it above other features/bug fixes/enhancements |
| 07:53 |
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T4im |
thePalindrome: https://wiki.mozilla.org/APNG_Specification ? use duckduckgo, google is terrible at finding useful things (yes, I'm serious, they filter too much) |
| 07:57 |
T4im |
and http://pmt.sourceforge.net/specs/png-1.2-pdg.html for extensions in general |
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Thomas-S |
Hello! Could any of the devs please add a second approval to this ( https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4267 ), if the PR is ok; or if the PR still needs improvement, tell me what I should improve? Thanks in advance! |
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Zeno` |
Thomas-S, done |
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nrzkt |
hi \er |
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paramat |
700 issues! :} |
| 12:50 |
Krock |
wohoo! |
| 12:51 |
Krock |
Next milestone: 800 issues |
| 13:00 |
paramat |
closed game#475 |
| 13:00 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/475 -- Have beds to depend necessarily on red dye? |
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sfan5 |
pushing in 5 minutes http://sprunge.us/UgDf?diff |
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paramat |
seems ok |
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| 13:21 |
nrzkt |
mergin #4267 |
| 13:21 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4267 -- Add an [opacity: texture modifier. by Thomas--S |
| 13:22 |
APNG |
nrzkt, what's the use-case for that? why not just use PNG transparency? |
| 13:23 |
sfan5 |
APNG: texture modifiers can be used to modify existing textures without creating a new one |
| 13:24 |
sfan5 |
also dynamic changes on entities or in formspecs |
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APNG |
is there any way to display a GUI when rightclicking an item? |
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sfan5 |
there is |
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paramat |
in my irc client rubenwardy has no 'yellow indicator light' and isn't grouped at the top with other devs |
| 16:13 |
Calinou |
rubenwardy is not currently voiced, that's why |
| 16:13 |
Calinou |
same for me :) |
| 16:13 |
Calinou |
(I mean, I see rubenwardy not grouped with other devs) |
| 16:25 |
rubenwardy |
:P |
| 16:26 |
rubenwardy |
and yeah, it's voice |
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rubenwardy |
I've been visiting my parents for the last 5 days, which is why I haven't been active |
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paramat |
Fixer please are you able to reduce the amount of join/quit messages from your 2 nicks? |
| 18:03 |
Fixer |
paramat: sorry, I'm currently analysing my boot speed with special tools that needs a lot of restarts |
| 18:03 |
paramat |
:} |
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rom1504 |
use /ignore JOIN QUIT |
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paramat |
ok |
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jomat |
/ignore JOIN QUIT lets you speak to people who are already gone |
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Fixer |
i finished my --- with windows, chat is yours now |
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| 20:03 |
OldCoder |
We have solved the mystery of the Sadies. This is for discussion in -project and not in -dev. But asking here... |
| 20:03 |
OldCoder |
Who was the person who knows how to DMCA illegal clones? |
| 20:04 |
OldCoder |
Was that Proller? This is a pretty bad one |
| 20:04 |
OldCoder |
It needs to be taken down |
| 20:04 |
Krock |
Is there a link for it? |
| 20:09 |
sfan5 |
OldCoder: you just need to file a dmca with google and provide an explanation : https://support.google.com/legal/troubleshooter/1114905 |
| 20:09 |
OldCoder |
sfan5, Krock link coming |
| 20:09 |
OldCoder |
This is -dev business after all. I have another question: |
| 20:09 |
OldCoder |
If the developer proves to be unreasonable, would a core patch to block his product be acceptable? |
| 20:10 |
sfan5 |
the first question is whether it's technically possible |
| 20:10 |
OldCoder |
I think it is. And the Sadies are coming from an Eastern European Minetest clone that doesn't credit Minetest... |
| 20:10 |
OldCoder |
The really annoying part |
| 20:10 |
OldCoder |
is that the developer simply implies that he, himself, has created a Minecraft clone |
| 20:11 |
sfan5 |
that is definitely a reason to go for dmca |
| 20:11 |
OldCoder |
He is also sending 100s of players into Minetest worlds with no explanation |
| 20:11 |
OldCoder |
of what the game is |
| 20:11 |
OldCoder |
Link: |
| 20:11 |
OldCoder |
http://www.explorationbase.com/ |
| 20:11 |
OldCoder |
He has app versions for Apple AND Android |
| 20:11 |
OldCoder |
And is going the whole route on monetization |
| 20:12 |
OldCoder |
Proller, I think, DMCA'd Multicraft before or one of the knockoffs |
| 20:12 |
sfan5 |
i did |
| 20:12 |
OldCoder |
If I can reach him, I'll ask him for... |
| 20:12 |
OldCoder |
sfan5, will you help with this one? I will contribute time and editing to the letter |
| 20:12 |
sfan5 |
i'll show you what i filed |
| 20:12 |
OldCoder |
Review the website. This one is really annoying. |
| 20:12 |
OldCoder |
OK. PM or -project. |
| 20:15 |
Krock |
backend = dummy -> exploration lite done. |
| 20:16 |
OldCoder |
sfan5, dig it up. I am filing with Apple now. |
| 20:17 |
thePalindrome |
"Sadies?" |
| 20:19 |
Krock |
yes, "Sadie1231", like the guests |
| 20:19 |
* thePalindrome |
has never been on a public minetest server |
| 20:21 |
Krock |
then you know your next mission ^ |
| 20:22 |
thePalindrome |
So after the mission "Add a callback that a lot of mods want to use to the engine" comes "join a server? :P" |
| 20:24 |
thePalindrome |
Krock: Too late, I've already added a callback that at least somebody else wanted to do :P |
| 20:25 |
Krock |
mymod.initialize_callback() |
| 20:26 |
thePalindrome |
No silly, I added it to the engine :P |
| 20:28 |
thePalindrome |
on_secondary_use |
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* thePalindrome |
is cool, right? |
| 20:49 |
nrzkt |
OldCoder, it was me not proller for multicraft |
| 20:53 |
OldCoder |
nrzkt, thanks. I'm on the phone with Apple regarding the issue. |
| 20:55 |
BrandonReese |
Are you sure exploration and exploration lite is built off of minetest? I installed it, feels totally different. Interface is completely different. No multiplayer. |
| 20:57 |
OldCoder |
BrandonReese, sfan5 says that it includes the readme.txt. It also connects to our servers. |
| 20:57 |
sfan5 |
no no |
| 20:57 |
OldCoder |
Oh? explain, then |
| 20:57 |
sfan5 |
the exploration *you* linked is something different |
| 20:57 |
sfan5 |
this one >> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.freecraft.freecraft_exploration |
| 20:57 |
sfan5 |
uses minetest |
| 20:58 |
nrzkt |
OldCoder, i only do it for google, not apple |
| 20:58 |
OldCoder |
nrzkt, thanks |
| 20:58 |
sfan5 |
and is confusingly also called "Exploration" |
| 20:58 |
OldCoder |
So, the Apple link appears to be innocent? |
| 20:58 |
OldCoder |
Need to settle this |
| 20:59 |
OldCoder |
Because I am on hold for Apple Legal right now |
| 20:59 |
sfan5 |
apple link seems innocent yes |
| 20:59 |
sfan5 |
(other minetest clones exist on the apple app store however) |
| 20:59 |
OldCoder |
Is Andrzej Chomiak's MC clone entirely independent, then? |
| 20:59 |
OldCoder |
Right |
| 20:59 |
sfan5 |
Yes, it is |
| 20:59 |
OldCoder |
Very well |
| 21:00 |
sfan5 |
sorry if i didn't make this clear |
| 21:00 |
OldCoder |
sfan5, I'm out of time shortly. Would you like to deal with the Google one? |
| 21:00 |
OldCoder |
OK |
| 21:00 |
OldCoder |
I think |
| 21:00 |
sfan5 |
not today at least |
| 21:00 |
OldCoder |
We need to start doing this on a more regular basis |
| 21:00 |
OldCoder |
I will deal with the Sadies one next week, then |
| 21:00 |
sfan5 |
the thing is |
| 21:00 |
OldCoder |
Go on |
| 21:00 |
sfan5 |
many games mention "bla bla based on lgpl minetest engine" in their description |
| 21:00 |
OldCoder |
Right |
| 21:00 |
sfan5 |
and then they're out of it |
| 21:00 |
sfan5 |
no dmca possible |
| 21:01 |
OldCoder |
Actually |
| 21:01 |
OldCoder |
It depends |
| 21:01 |
OldCoder |
I'll comment further after research; I just remembered that this is -dev and not -project |
| 21:01 |
OldCoder |
So not appropriate forum |
| 21:02 |
OldCoder |
But why did you or nrzkt bother to file against MultiCraft if you felt it could not be taken down? |
| 21:03 |
sfan5 |
that was before they added that note to their description |
| 21:03 |
sfan5 |
two years ago... |
| 21:04 |
nrzkt |
OldCoder, yes, the main problem was they are not talking about the original project and didn't expose their sources |
| 21:04 |
OldCoder |
If MT is pure LGPL for the purposes of this discussion, is the notification actually sufficient for compliance? |
| 21:04 |
OldCoder |
You can answer in the -project channel |
| 21:05 |
OldCoder |
All of _game is unencumbered, then? |
| 21:05 |
OldCoder |
Takedowns can be attempted, regardless |
| 21:06 |
sfan5 |
well they didn't mention the license of the _game content |
| 21:06 |
OldCoder |
Appropriate solution might be to start blocking the worst offenders in the server list and in core |
| 21:06 |
OldCoder |
to the extent possible |
| 21:06 |
sfan5 |
it's pretty much impossible to do in core |
| 21:07 |
sfan5 |
as the only things you get are two numbers (protcol versions) |
| 21:07 |
OldCoder |
Requires further thought. But you *can* block clients from accessing the server list, right? |
| 21:07 |
sfan5 |
yes |
| 21:07 |
OldCoder |
I don't propose to block all mobile. But I think Exploration should be blocked. |
| 21:07 |
OldCoder |
Just that one initially. Is this a reasonable step? |
| 21:08 |
sfan5 |
i'd like to hear others opinions about this |
| 21:08 |
sfan5 |
reasonable? IMO only if DMCA was no use |
| 21:08 |
OldCoder |
Let's take this to -project. But again we are not DMCA'g. We are filing company-level complaints. |
| 21:45 |
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| 23:11 |
est31 |
I think blocking them on a serverlist basis is bad. |
| 23:11 |
est31 |
because they just change the user agent to match the minetest one |
| 23:11 |
est31 |
and we've got nothing anymore |
| 23:12 |
est31 |
we even lose statistics on who uses exploration craft, and who uses the real thing |
| 23:12 |
est31 |
so I'm against it, just my opinion |
| 23:13 |
sofar |
I don't mind bad clients existing, but I do think that server operators should have a way to detect, identify and even block them |
| 23:13 |
est31 |
I do like dmca requests against builds that dont comply with LGPL though |
| 23:13 |
thePalindrome |
Aye |
| 23:14 |
est31 |
sofar, we shouldn't discriminate people on their client choice. Minetest should not have a pocket edition and a desktop edition |
| 23:15 |
est31 |
with mutually incompatible protocols |
| 23:16 |
est31 |
especially as the main motive seems to be the predjudice by server operators that all mobile users are "kids" |
| 23:16 |
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| 23:16 |
est31 |
but blocking android blocks out all the grown up android users as well |
| 23:16 |
sofar |
est31: I wouldn't block mobile clients |
| 23:16 |
est31 |
thats not good |
| 23:17 |
sofar |
est31: I'd want to however at least identify possible hacked clients, or ones that have advertising |
| 23:17 |
sofar |
so I can at least send those users a message in-game that they're being ripped off |
| 23:18 |
thePalindrome |
hmm |
| 23:19 |
est31 |
identifying "hacked" clients is impossible |
| 23:19 |
est31 |
unless we implement RFC 3514 |
| 23:19 |
est31 |
:) |
| 23:19 |
thePalindrome |
Which could still be spoofed :P |
| 23:20 |
est31 |
thePalindrome, no, never! |
| 23:21 |
est31 |
sofar, I agree with the general idea to tell users that there are ad free clients as well |
| 23:21 |
thePalindrome |
Oh, that's the evil bit |
| 23:22 |
est31 |
sofar, but I see no way we could implement it |
| 23:23 |
est31 |
at least no way that cant be spoofed by the third party clients |
| 23:23 |
thePalindrome |
Aye |
| 23:25 |
est31 |
and I would not like "giving it a try". |
| 23:34 |
est31 |
<STHGOM> probably half of the active minetest audience is from multicraft |
| 23:34 |
est31 |
^ plus this |
| 23:34 |
est31 |
those apps add users to the minetest platform |
| 23:35 |
est31 |
as long as they comply with the LGPL I am fine with them |
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