| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:02 |
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| 00:07 |
rubenwardy |
What is the point of particles.cpp/h? Why wasn't Irrlicht's particle system used with an affector to add collision? |
| 00:07 |
rubenwardy |
particles.cpp/h has no batching |
| 00:07 |
rubenwardy |
it draws every single particle as a separate scene node |
| 00:08 |
paramat |
yeah others have said our particles are not optimal |
| 00:09 |
rubenwardy |
just found #2587 |
| 00:09 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2587 -- wip irrlicht particles 2 by obneq |
| 00:09 |
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| 00:21 |
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| 00:26 |
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| 00:49 |
rubenwardy |
I'm currently on commit 6/17 of #2587 |
| 00:49 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2587 -- wip irrlicht particles 2 by obneq |
| 00:49 |
rubenwardy |
man this is painful to rebase |
| 00:55 |
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| 01:13 |
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| 01:21 |
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| 01:25 |
rubenwardy |
rebased #2587, however there are compile errors due to things changing since (which rebase didn't pick up on) https://github.com/rubenwardy/minetest/commits/irrlicht-particles-2 |
| 01:25 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2587 -- wip irrlicht particles 2 by obneq |
| 01:38 |
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| 02:00 |
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| 02:30 |
hmmmm |
hey guys |
| 02:30 |
est31 |
hi |
| 02:30 |
hmmmm |
est, you were a reviewer of 52ba1f8 |
| 02:31 |
hmmmm |
do you think it should've been merged with your approval alone? |
| 02:31 |
hmmmm |
4978 |
| 02:32 |
hmmmm |
could've sworn it was you, in fact, who said that changes to the network or lua api should require at least 2 approvals |
| 02:37 |
est31 |
hmmmm: there was approval by nrz |
| 02:37 |
hmmmm |
nrz was the author though |
| 02:37 |
est31 |
I've read through the code very closely |
| 02:38 |
est31 |
but yeah, maybe something subtle messed up |
| 02:38 |
hmmmm |
and you thought https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/52ba1f867e5edb579a59a44fbb8286d4f1e54931#diff-da1e28445fc732755d2b64683bd94ee4R966 was okay? |
| 02:38 |
est31 |
still, letting it rot in the queue is not a way to find out |
| 02:38 |
est31 |
I've seen the line but thought it was okay |
| 02:39 |
hmmmm |
that's like a disaster |
| 02:39 |
hmmmm |
how does that not scream "this code has issues with organization" to you? |
| 02:39 |
est31 |
unknown has content features too, doesn't it? |
| 02:39 |
est31 |
and ignore |
| 02:39 |
hmmmm |
yes, it does |
| 02:40 |
hmmmm |
bug free is just a starting point for quality though |
| 02:41 |
est31 |
what are the organisation problems in your eyes? |
| 02:41 |
hmmmm |
if you're doing crazy casts like that, you know something's wrong |
| 02:41 |
hmmmm |
why does a PlayerSAO object need to know about the server? |
| 02:42 |
hmmmm |
should the PlayerSAO object really be the one sending packets? |
| 02:46 |
est31 |
mhh dunno |
| 02:46 |
est31 |
probably it would be better to raise such concerns while PRs are still open |
| 02:47 |
est31 |
or if they are merged, propose to change it via another PR |
| 02:48 |
hmmmm |
i didn't even see this |
| 02:51 |
hmmmm |
see, according to the PR it was opened 2 days ago and merged one day ago |
| 03:35 |
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| 04:27 |
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| 06:10 |
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| 06:36 |
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| 06:41 |
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| 06:42 |
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| 06:43 |
Zeno` |
time to fork minetest_game I guess |
| 06:44 |
VanessaE |
fix it, don't fork it. |
| 06:45 |
Zeno` |
things are being merged now without regard for what coredevs think |
| 06:45 |
Zeno` |
also, we are not allowed to commit to minetest_game otherwise I'd just revert the silly commits |
| 06:46 |
Zeno` |
paramat is still twisting words insisting that saplings have NEVER been able to be grown underground |
| 06:48 |
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| 06:52 |
nrzkt |
i will merge #4975 in some minutes |
| 06:52 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4975 -- Pull occlusion check out of loop, and minor code cleanups. by lhofhansl |
| 06:57 |
Zeno` |
which brings me to another matter |
| 06:58 |
Zeno` |
I don't think that we (coredevs) should be able to commit to minetest_game necessarily. But why do our downvotes not count (in paramats words)????? |
| 06:59 |
* VanessaE |
grumbles |
| 07:00 |
Zeno` |
paramats response to hmmmm opposing a MTG issue: "Hmmmm is not a game dev." |
| 07:00 |
Zeno` |
isn't there something wrong when coredevs don't count? |
| 07:01 |
sofar |
I don't agree, and I like the separation tbh |
| 07:01 |
Zeno` |
sofar, I'm not saying we should be able to commit (we can anyway) |
| 07:01 |
hmmmm |
really? |
| 07:02 |
Zeno` |
But why don't our opinions count? |
| 07:02 |
sofar |
well that's not the case in my mind |
| 07:02 |
VanessaE |
any core dev should have an equal vote in mt_game |
| 07:02 |
sofar |
VanessaE: that I disagree with |
| 07:02 |
Zeno` |
well, we seem to have a problem |
| 07:02 |
hmmmm |
okay |
| 07:02 |
VanessaE |
like it or not, that's the MT standard game content. it HAS to work right! |
| 07:02 |
hmmmm |
now hold on |
| 07:02 |
hmmmm |
wait for the majority of mtgame devs to oppose something paramat wants |
| 07:03 |
hmmmm |
and then us core devs will be for it |
| 07:03 |
hmmmm |
magically the 'rules' will change |
| 07:03 |
VanessaE |
sofar: well, I'm no core dev anyway so my vote doesn't count :P |
| 07:03 |
hmmmm |
come on man |
| 07:03 |
hmmmm |
this is politics plain and simple |
| 07:03 |
hmmmm |
people don't want to play politics when they do mt |
| 07:04 |
Zeno` |
well, in that case mt_game devs should have no say in engine issue |
| 07:04 |
sofar |
I don't like this rule bending for sure |
| 07:04 |
hmmmm |
no, this is enforcing a completely made up rule when it benefits their case |
| 07:04 |
nrzkt |
don't forget whereas we don't provide mt_game with engine in desktops we do it on Android |
| 07:04 |
hmmmm |
in any case |
| 07:05 |
hmmmm |
what i personally think is that a lot more people should have say in mtgame |
| 07:05 |
hmmmm |
not just core devs in addition to mtgame devs (did not know there was a split in the first place...) but people like vanessae should be allowed a vote as well |
| 07:05 |
sofar |
well, mtg should be run by folks who have a large interest in modding and making a base game |
| 07:05 |
hmmmm |
and i'm sure there are other contributors who are deeply involved with the project yet not core devs for whatever reasons |
| 07:06 |
sofar |
so imho VanessaE's voice counts heavy (to me it does, anyway) |
| 07:06 |
hmmmm |
absolutely |
| 07:06 |
sofar |
anyone who has written lots of mods will get their voices listened to by me |
| 07:06 |
hmmmm |
a lot of people who aren't core devs have voices that matter to me, and vice versa |
| 07:06 |
sofar |
e.g. stujones |
| 07:06 |
hmmmm |
i think what mostly matters is how informed their opinion is |
| 07:07 |
hmmmm |
it's just that a fast and easy cutoff is core dev status |
| 07:07 |
Zeno` |
even nore objected to 1476 and it was ignored until sofar said he agreed with hmmmm |
| 07:07 |
Zeno` |
is nore no longer a game dev? |
| 07:07 |
hmmmm |
what is 1476? |
| 07:07 |
hmmmm |
#1476 |
| 07:07 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1476 -- Windows Cross compile script fails to copy required dlls |
| 07:07 |
Zeno` |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1476 |
| 07:07 |
hmmmm |
ahh |
| 07:08 |
hmmmm |
oh that one |
| 07:08 |
Zeno` |
"Ok i just saw that sofar no longer wants to reduce these light levels, so this PR probably won't go ahead, " |
| 07:09 |
Zeno` |
and all of a sudden the issue was abandoned |
| 07:09 |
Zeno` |
weird |
| 07:10 |
hmmmm |
if you read the PR paramat said that sofar originally proposed 1476 |
| 07:10 |
hmmmm |
so without sofar's support logically it'd be abandoned |
| 07:10 |
Zeno` |
I realise that much :) |
| 07:10 |
hmmmm |
i don't think it's a matter of respecting one person's opinion more or less than another's |
| 07:11 |
Zeno` |
it doesn't matter. I'm over it |
| 07:11 |
hmmmm |
just the principle backer of it pulled out |
| 07:11 |
nrzkt |
maybe having a new group on the organization for mt_game voters could be good, celeron55 ^ |
| 07:11 |
Zeno` |
if we have no say in the direction of mt_game then what's the point? |
| 07:11 |
hmmmm |
right like i said |
| 07:12 |
Zeno` |
no wonder I find it difficult to motivate myself again for minetest |
| 07:12 |
hmmmm |
the point of having core devs only have the power to vote on issues is to serve as a proxy for allowing informed opinions in, only |
| 07:12 |
hmmmm |
having minetest game devs only have the power to vote on minetest game issues is divisive for no real reason |
| 07:12 |
hmmmm |
presumably everybody who develops the core only do have informed opinions... or at least i'd hope |
| 07:13 |
sofar |
this is why I started to think about an entirely new subgame a while back |
| 07:14 |
sofar |
running a subgame (mtg, to me, is a subgame anyway) with too many cooks... |
| 07:14 |
sofar |
this is why I'm not opposed to having *less* voters for mtg |
| 07:14 |
hmmmm |
this is also why i would've preferred for changes to mt_game stay conservative if at all |
| 07:14 |
hmmmm |
it's meant to be a starting point |
| 07:15 |
minetester |
non-dev, random player: sofar's issue is most worrying to me, everyone pulling mtg in random directions (mesecons, machinery, etc.). More subgames would be fine as long as mtg doesnt miss out on things completely |
| 07:16 |
sofar |
me joining has certainly pushed mtg into a new style already... |
| 07:16 |
sofar |
I'm afk, bedtime |
| 07:21 |
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| 07:57 |
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| 08:30 |
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| 08:36 |
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| 09:41 |
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| 10:55 |
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| 11:05 |
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| 11:10 |
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| 11:23 |
Zeno` |
lordfingle> Hey! Has anyone noticed that 0.4.15 is now generating dungeons over the top of previously generated terrain? |
| 11:24 |
nrzkt |
oh great ! |
| 11:24 |
Zeno` |
yeah. There was a very large commit that changed dungeons |
| 11:24 |
Zeno` |
I wonder if that caused the issue |
| 11:26 |
Zeno` |
we had this once before just before 0.4.13 was released |
| 11:26 |
Zeno` |
fortunately it was caught pretty quick that time |
| 11:28 |
Zeno` |
(it was cave related, but much the same thing) |
| 11:59 |
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| 12:01 |
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| 12:22 |
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| 12:26 |
juhdanad |
Hi! I would be very thankful if you could review #4346. It has been waiting to be merged for five months... |
| 12:26 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4346 -- Improved getPointedThing() by juhdanad |
| 12:37 |
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| 12:44 |
rubenwardy |
RE: mtgame dev discussion - the point of the split is to "problems with the development like before": http://dev.minetest.net/Minetest_Game_development |
| 13:07 |
sfan5 |
any reason why chat doesn't support background colors |
| 13:09 |
Calinou |
background colors can be pretty intrusive, but it'd be nice to have *if it supported alpha* |
| 13:09 |
Calinou |
I see uses for a transparent red background for critical messages |
| 13:09 |
Calinou |
but not opaque blue and yellow text :) |
| 13:09 |
rubenwardy |
Do you mean like this |
| 13:10 |
Calinou |
I think color codes are stripped in this channel |
| 13:10 |
rubenwardy |
lol |
| 13:12 |
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| 13:36 |
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| 13:38 |
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| 13:38 |
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| 13:39 |
Preuk |
hi, didnt touch mt for a while, forgot some thingies about register_abm |
| 13:40 |
Preuk |
specificaly, action parameters for abm; any pointers? (nothing in dev wiki nor lua_api about what these count parameters are) |
| 13:43 |
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| 13:47 |
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| 13:47 |
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| 13:48 |
sfan5 |
Preuk: active_object_count = <how many objects the given [MapBlock] [...] contains> |
| 13:49 |
sfan5 |
active_object_count_wider = <number of objects in the [MapBlock] and all its neighbours> |
| 13:49 |
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| 13:49 |
sfan5 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/environment.cpp#L838 |
| 14:25 |
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| 14:42 |
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| 15:01 |
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| 15:27 |
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| 15:32 |
Zeno` |
celeron55, perhaps you should look into the dissatisfaction with MTG |
| 15:32 |
Zeno` |
and how it's managed |
| 15:32 |
Zeno` |
a huge amount of people are upset (rightly so, IMO) |
| 15:33 |
rubenwardy |
FWIW, I agree that coredevs that are not MTG devs should still have a say in MTG |
| 15:34 |
nrzkt |
revolution ! caramba |
| 15:34 |
Zeno` |
our hands are tied. Most of the time we don't care what happens in MTG, but when something comes up that is very controversial we're basically ignored |
| 15:34 |
Zeno` |
and it seems that most modders and server ops are pissed off as well |
| 15:35 |
Zeno` |
this is a most unfortunate situation |
| 15:35 |
An0n3m0us |
heh |
| 15:36 |
celeron55 |
it's not the most unfortunate situation |
| 15:36 |
celeron55 |
not even "a" |
| 15:36 |
Zeno` |
it is when nobody is happy :( |
| 15:37 |
celeron55 |
that's been the case before too with mtg |
| 15:37 |
Zeno` |
c55, so why are we (core engine devs) basically ignored? |
| 15:38 |
Zeno` |
(e.g. hmmmm is not a mtg dev so his opinion doesn't matter) |
| 15:38 |
Zeno` |
for that matter, why are all the server ops and modders ignored? |
| 15:39 |
Zeno` |
because that seems, to me, to be the case at this point in time |
| 15:39 |
celeron55 |
do you know the history of mtg? |
| 15:39 |
Zeno` |
only roughly |
| 15:39 |
rubenwardy |
are we talking specifically about torches/sapling, or are there other issues as well? |
| 15:40 |
Zeno` |
there are other issues as well |
| 15:40 |
Zeno` |
as discussed last night I believe in -project |
| 15:40 |
celeron55 |
we tried to stop development of mtg and replace it with other subgames but then people just continued mtg under different names like minetest next or whatever |
| 15:40 |
Zeno` |
well, stopping mtg dev would not be a good idea I don't think |
| 15:40 |
celeron55 |
so it seemed there was no point in even trying and the ones developing minetest_next or whatever were put in charge of mtg |
| 15:40 |
celeron55 |
and that's the current situation |
| 15:41 |
Zeno` |
tough place to be in |
| 15:41 |
celeron55 |
i think mtg should listen to server ops and modders though |
| 15:41 |
Zeno` |
I dunno the solution |
| 15:41 |
Zeno` |
I just think that we are not listened to |
| 15:42 |
rubenwardy |
I try to listen to server ops and modders, but they don't seem to comment unless it's very controversial |
| 15:42 |
rubenwardy |
I think there needs to be a vote to decide about torches/saplings/balance amongst core devs and servers owners |
| 15:46 |
An0n3m0us |
yea |
| 15:46 |
rubenwardy |
I personally don't care that much currently - there's no risk to being above ground (no mobs) so the only thing it does is make deep mining harder when it comes to getting wood |
| 15:46 |
Zeno` |
but even those very controversial things seem to be almost disregarded |
| 15:47 |
Zeno` |
I dunno |
| 15:48 |
Zeno` |
basically breaking underground farms and forests is IMO a bad idea |
| 15:48 |
Zeno` |
and it seems like a lot of people agree |
| 15:48 |
Zeno` |
of the 10+ servers I have visisted in the last week 9 of them had these |
| 15:49 |
Zeno` |
yes, maybe it was an oversight allowing saplings etc to be grown underground |
| 15:49 |
Zeno` |
but it's been used for so long now it's a feature |
| 15:49 |
Zeno` |
so "fixing" it is... well weird |
| 15:50 |
Zeno` |
some of the creations I've seen would have taken weeks or months to build |
| 15:50 |
Zeno` |
it's obvious players want it |
| 15:55 |
sfan5 |
Zeno`: can you provide a list of all the thing you feel are wanted by players but not in mtg? |
| 15:59 |
Zeno` |
it's all in #minetest-project log |
| 16:00 |
Zeno` |
it's more things that people don't want actually heheh |
| 16:01 |
Preuk |
sfan5: yep, but nothing about what "objects" it's about; is it just to alter abm depending on how "crowded" a mapblock is? |
| 16:02 |
sfan5 |
Preuk: what counts as "object" is defined in the docs, i don't know why ABMs might need those parameters |
| 16:02 |
sfan5 |
Zeno`: i wanted a list because i didn't want to hunt for it in some irc logs... |
| 16:03 |
Preuk |
sfan5: ok so it's as literal as it seems... thanks, i'll try to find some use cases in mtg |
| 16:04 |
sfan5 |
i don't think mtg abms use those params |
| 16:16 |
Preuk |
then the question is... what are they for? |
| 16:16 |
Preuk |
i remember finding an example a few months back in a mod, can't remember where, i'll just keep looking |
| 16:17 |
rubenwardy |
merging game#1487 in 15 mins... |
| 16:17 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1487 -- Make doors place when shift is held instead of calling on_rightclick by rubenwardy |
| 16:28 |
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| 16:53 |
rubenwardy |
merging... |
| 16:54 |
rubenwardy |
done |
| 17:13 |
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| 18:29 |
Zeno` |
paramat, if you're lurking watching the logs: "get fucked and get your story straight" |
| 18:32 |
rubenwardy |
ignoring old worlds / servers / build, would you object to requiring sunlamps? |
| 18:32 |
Zeno` |
no because I don't want old worlds to be broken |
| 18:32 |
rubenwardy |
for the sake of argument |
| 18:33 |
hmmmm |
what's going on now |
| 18:33 |
Zeno` |
if they good be made to look more natural then maybe |
| 18:34 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm, https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1478#issuecomment-270183317 |
| 18:34 |
rubenwardy |
so the two issues are: 1) backwards compatibility, servers have underground "biomes" using torch light to grow forests, 2) mese lamps are ugly |
| 18:35 |
Zeno` |
yes |
| 18:35 |
Zeno` |
and paramat twisting words |
| 18:35 |
rubenwardy |
heh |
| 18:35 |
rubenwardy |
would game#1480 solve #2 at least? |
| 18:35 |
hmmmm |
well wait a minute, without pulling up old logs let's figure this out |
| 18:35 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1480 -- Default: Add nodebox mese light usable as a growlamp by paramat |
| 18:35 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2 -- Burned wood |
| 18:36 |
hmmmm |
i think both of you acknowledge the facts of the situation: |
| 18:36 |
hmmmm |
- we used to be able to grow saplings underground |
| 18:36 |
hmmmm |
- this is only because there was no light check for sapling growth, i.e. a bug |
| 18:36 |
hmmmm |
but wait a minute, was it a bug? because the other things that grow came from the farming mods |
| 18:37 |
hmmmm |
saplings were in minetest from the very beginning |
| 18:39 |
Zeno` |
look, I lost my temper. I'm sorry about that. But saying that these things have never been possible is just not true |
| 18:40 |
hmmmm |
well did he say they "never should have been possible" or actually "never was possible" |
| 18:40 |
Zeno` |
he said "never was possible" |
| 18:40 |
Zeno` |
the thing is, this "bug" or whatever became part of the game |
| 18:41 |
Zeno` |
for a long, long time |
| 18:41 |
hmmmm |
yeah, paramat makes a lot of similar arguments about buggy behavior adding to the 'charm' of the game |
| 18:41 |
Zeno` |
I know |
| 18:41 |
hmmmm |
it's not fair if you use the logic for one thing you like and then deny it when it's something you don't like |
| 18:41 |
hmmmm |
i agree that it adds to the charm of the game |
| 18:42 |
Zeno` |
I made a comment somewhere that he didn't like fixing floating rocks because it added to the charm and the character |
| 18:42 |
hmmmm |
it's similar to the civilization gandhi with nuclear weapons |
| 18:42 |
hmmmm |
is it technically a bug? sure |
| 18:42 |
hmmmm |
should you change it? not unless you want to piss a lot of people off and ruin the character of the game |
| 18:43 |
Zeno` |
that's what I'm getting at. But if something has been around for so long and people use it and enjoy it... is it really a "bug"? |
| 18:43 |
hmmmm |
but the key phrase is "people enjoy it" |
| 18:43 |
rubenwardy |
you can still grow trees underground, just using a more expensive light source |
| 18:43 |
hmmmm |
from the original thread it seemed like there were a lot of people who didn't like this behavior |
| 18:43 |
Zeno` |
well they obviously do because it's used so much |
| 18:43 |
hmmmm |
so did we really have a fair assessment of whether it's wanted or not? |
| 18:44 |
Zeno` |
anyway, I apologise to paramat for my outburst above |
| 18:44 |
hmmmm |
i dunno how much more fair it'll be but for democratic decisions like this what i like to do is open a forum poll to vote |
| 18:44 |
Zeno` |
but I am really passionate about it |
| 18:44 |
hmmmm |
that's okay |
| 18:44 |
hmmmm |
the problem isn't that the issue isn't important or something |
| 18:44 |
hmmmm |
it's the fact that there is an issue and no good way of resolving it as of right now |
| 18:45 |
Zeno` |
maybe a config option |
| 18:45 |
hmmmm |
i know it's probably the lazy way but i seriously think there should be a vote |
| 18:45 |
rubenwardy |
+1 for a vote |
| 18:45 |
Zeno` |
I dunno |
| 18:45 |
hmmmm |
yeah |
| 18:45 |
rubenwardy |
in the mean time you can use https://github.com/rubenwardy/torches_grow_saplings |
| 18:45 |
hmmmm |
making a config option could be an excuse for lazy engineering |
| 18:45 |
hmmmm |
p |
| 18:45 |
Zeno` |
if it was a config option, though, nobody could complain |
| 18:45 |
Zeno` |
I wouldn't |
| 18:45 |
Zeno` |
it would not break older worlds for a start |
| 18:46 |
hmmmm |
i dunno |
| 18:46 |
hmmmm |
i think this is possible to resolve without adding yet another config option |
| 18:46 |
sofar |
what about the slower growth at lower light proposal? |
| 18:46 |
hmmmm |
at least try the poll |
| 18:46 |
hmmmm |
paramat flatly rejected it |
| 18:46 |
Zeno` |
I liked your proposal sofar |
| 18:46 |
hmmmm |
"No, not possible." or something similar |
| 18:46 |
sofar |
so? there are other opinions |
| 18:46 |
hmmmm |
i like it too tbh |
| 18:46 |
sofar |
it's entirely possible |
| 18:46 |
hmmmm |
so let's vote on it! |
| 18:46 |
rubenwardy |
I would support that proposal |
| 18:47 |
hmmmm |
i want to see what the players like |
| 18:47 |
sofar |
let me open the issue |
| 18:47 |
Zeno` |
ok, make a place to vote |
| 18:47 |
sofar |
I'll do that |
| 18:47 |
sfan5 |
a config option is about the worst solution for this |
| 18:47 |
Zeno` |
make sure the people in minetest-project know about it as well |
| 18:47 |
sfan5 |
also a poll on the forum is not perfect but i guess it suffices |
| 18:47 |
rubenwardy |
config options should be avoided for gameplay reasons, imo |
| 18:47 |
sofar |
forum poll? meh, I'd prefer github :) |
| 18:47 |
rubenwardy |
*choices |
| 18:48 |
Zeno` |
so far (haha), sofar's proposed solution has been the best I've seen |
| 18:48 |
sofar |
please state the options it should have, so I make sure not to omit any: |
| 18:49 |
rubenwardy |
- Growing requires meselamps. Add pretty mese lamp. Servers can use the [torches_grow_saplings] mod if they want to revert this behaviour |
| 18:49 |
rubenwardy |
- Plants grow at max speed under meselamps and sunlight, and slower under torches |
| 18:50 |
rubenwardy |
- Allow torches to grow saplings at full speed |
| 18:50 |
rubenwardy |
- Allow sapling to grow in any lighting |
| 18:51 |
Zeno` |
in no lighting should also probably be included since that was the bug that the commit attempted to fix |
| 18:51 |
Zeno` |
I don't agree with the no light thing |
| 18:51 |
Zeno` |
but it probably should be there |
| 18:52 |
rubenwardy |
Stating the obvious, but you can use github emoji responses to vote. It's fine for people to select multiple options as they may be happy with any of them |
| 18:53 |
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| 18:53 |
sofar |
that's why I'll do it that way |
| 18:58 |
hmmmm |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/stable-0.3/src/environment.cpp#L1095 |
| 18:58 |
hmmmm |
there's 0.3 |
| 18:59 |
hmmmm |
dunno how much farther back you want to go but |
| 18:59 |
hmmmm |
sorry paramat, you're just wrong here, it's not a bug |
| 19:05 |
sofar |
game#1493 |
| 19:05 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1493 -- Poll: Growing crops and/or saplings underground? |
| 19:05 |
rubenwardy |
I agree it's not a bug, more a lack of consistency (which doesn't make it a bug) |
| 19:05 |
sofar |
anything I missed? |
| 19:05 |
sofar |
comments in here please if I need to adjust the options |
| 19:11 |
sofar |
I see votes but no comments, lol |
| 19:11 |
Zeno` |
how do I remove a vote? lol |
| 19:12 |
sfan5 |
click again |
| 19:12 |
Zeno` |
thanks |
| 19:12 |
Zeno` |
I think #2 needs a counterpart |
| 19:12 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2 -- Burned wood |
| 19:13 |
Zeno` |
2 could also be extended (as another option) to allow torches to grow saplings and grow crops |
| 19:13 |
nrzkt |
sofar, i'm late but i vote for you |
| 19:13 |
sfan5 |
sofar: i thought of implementing 2 like this: allow trees to grow with the light level torches produce |
| 19:14 |
sfan5 |
no need to check for specific torches, no worrying about compat to other torches |
| 19:14 |
sofar |
sfan5: hmmm, right, I'll update the options |
| 19:14 |
sfan5 |
the implementation method doesn't matter for the options |
| 19:15 |
Zeno` |
although I'm less passionate about crops |
| 19:15 |
Zeno` |
I'm not sure what they needed before the changes because I never grew them |
| 19:15 |
rubenwardy |
it may be worth giving this poll a deadline |
| 19:16 |
rubenwardy |
Zeno`: fairly they needed sunlight or sunlamps |
| 19:16 |
Zeno` |
could crops be grown with a torch before? |
| 19:16 |
rubenwardy |
*fairly sure |
| 19:16 |
sofar |
Zeno`: it's important since a lot of crop derivative mods rely on the farming code |
| 19:17 |
Zeno` |
ok |
| 19:19 |
sofar |
there's some double emoticons (amaz, rubenwardy) |
| 19:20 |
sofar |
try to add only 1 emoticon per option |
| 19:20 |
Amaz |
Opps, sorry |
| 19:21 |
sofar |
I've added a comment to close at 1/10 |
| 19:24 |
rubenwardy |
Didn't realise it was mutually exclusive |
| 19:25 |
sofar |
it just makes tallying easier :) |
| 19:25 |
sofar |
if you make an option your preferred one, it's assume you :+1: the options too |
| 19:25 |
sofar |
s/options/option/ |
| 19:25 |
nore |
sofar: I just proposed another suggestion btw |
| 19:26 |
sofar |
ok |
| 19:28 |
nore |
sofar: btw, add some comment about the only 1 emoticon / option at the top as well |
| 19:29 |
Zeno` |
thanks for the effort sofar |
| 19:29 |
* Zeno` |
sleeps now |
| 19:34 |
sofar |
afk a bits |
| 19:35 |
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| 19:51 |
hmmmm |
doh what is this |
| 19:51 |
hmmmm |
you should've put the poll on the forum |
| 19:51 |
hmmmm |
there are more minetest *players* on the forum than on github |
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| 20:41 |
sofar_ |
I can make a poll on the forum too |
| 20:41 |
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| 21:31 |
juhdanad |
Thank you for reviewing #4986! My bad habit is that I do not write according to the code style and do not use comments until my work is done, because I'm changing my own API continuously. Sorry for the inconvenience. |
| 21:31 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4986 -- Hardware node coloring by juhdanad |
| 21:31 |
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| 21:39 |
sofar |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16332 forum version of poll |
| 21:45 |
sofar |
link for core devs who are interested in compression algorithms |
| 21:45 |
sofar |
https://clearlinux.org/blogs/linux-os-data-compression-options-comparing-behavior |
| 21:45 |
sofar |
interesting notes if we ever want to revisit packet data compression |
| 21:45 |
est31 |
cool |
| 21:45 |
sofar |
since time is a critical component of it |
| 21:45 |
sfan5 |
oh is that the intel thing i heard of |
| 21:46 |
est31 |
but we need to support non linux platforms as well |
| 21:46 |
est31 |
oh, its only about libaries |
| 21:46 |
sofar |
the author is my colleague and friend |
| 21:46 |
est31 |
nice post! |
| 21:47 |
sofar |
imho we shouldn't use XZ for map data, since the time needed to compress data on disk is wasted |
| 21:47 |
sofar |
snappy/lz4 are very interesting choices |
| 21:47 |
sfan5 |
sofar: does intel plan on contributing their optimizations upstream? |
| 21:47 |
sofar |
but zlib overall should be good too |
| 21:48 |
sfan5 |
also we've had a github issue where we benchmarked some alternative compression algos already |
| 21:48 |
sofar |
almost all the optimizations we do are directly to the upstream libs |
| 21:48 |
sofar |
but you may have to enable cpu optimizations in distros |
| 21:48 |
sfan5 |
yeah but will the upstream libs release with intels changes included? |
| 21:49 |
sfan5 |
i mean obviously it's up to them but does intel plan to allow that? |
| 21:49 |
nrzkt |
yes you will need AVX2 or some interesting instruction which are not standard in Z98 spectrum, and we support things like this in MT |
| 21:49 |
sofar |
we don't keep these changes to ourselves |
| 21:49 |
sofar |
nrzkt: this is compression - the streams are compatible |
| 21:49 |
est31 |
and are both compiled with the same compiler? |
| 21:49 |
sofar |
all these are on clearlinux, so yes, same compiler |
| 21:50 |
est31 |
it would be unfair if the unmodified version was compiled with gcc, and the modified with the proprietary intel one |
| 21:50 |
sofar |
there is no intel proprietary code in this article |
| 21:51 |
sofar |
e.g. |
| 21:51 |
sofar |
https://github.com/clearlinux-pkgs/zlib |
| 21:51 |
sofar |
a few build patches but no code |
| 21:52 |
sofar |
everything on github, open source |
| 21:52 |
sofar |
it would be worthless to us if it wasn't available to all Intel's customers |
| 21:53 |
sfan5 |
the actual source is this? https://github.com/jtkukunas/zlib |
| 21:53 |
sofar |
yes, for zlib. Jim has been upstreaming his changes but the zlib community is... partially missing |
| 21:54 |
sfan5 |
yeah, zlib hasn't had a new release for like... forever |
| 21:54 |
est31 |
still hard to beat it by a lot |
| 21:55 |
est31 |
especially if you want to beat it in all categories, compression speed, compression ratio, decompression speed |
| 21:56 |
sfan5 |
<sfan5> yeah, zlib hasn't had a new release for like... forever |
| 21:57 |
sofar |
so I just talked to Arjan and Jim |
| 21:57 |
sfan5 |
Current release: zlib 1.2.10 January 2, 2017 |
| 21:57 |
sfan5 |
mark adler must be joking |
| 21:57 |
sofar |
and it seems the zlib guy *just* resurfaced from a 2yr NASA stint |
| 21:57 |
sofar |
so he's just now starting to maintain it again |
| 21:57 |
Fixer |
save PR 3810 |
| 21:57 |
est31 |
lol |
| 21:57 |
nrzkt |
zlib has release a version 3 years after latest, last week |
| 21:58 |
est31 |
lol https://github.com/madler/zlib/releases |
| 21:58 |
nrzkt |
just a question, why we don't embed sqlite library ? like jsoncpp ? |
| 21:58 |
est31 |
it was removed for some reason |
| 21:58 |
est31 |
not sure why |
| 21:58 |
nrzkt |
this permit end users on old systems like Debian 7 to have an up to date and best performance lib |
| 21:59 |
sfan5 |
possibly because it's big and takes long to compile |
| 21:59 |
est31 |
but embedding means the git log is super bloated |
| 21:59 |
nrzkt |
then remove jsoncpp, our implementation is outdated and hasn't optimizations |
| 21:59 |
est31 |
even more bloated than its now |
| 21:59 |
nrzkt |
sqlite3.c only take 15sec to compile |
| 21:59 |
sfan5 |
yeah and our other files usually take about 0.2sec |
| 21:59 |
nrzkt |
git log is not bloated it's just a commit log. |
| 22:00 |
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| 22:00 |
nrzkt |
sfan5, what is 15sec of compilation to have faster singleplayer backend ? |
| 22:00 |
sfan5 |
are you aware that it doesn't actually matter on debian? |
| 22:00 |
sfan5 |
their package maintainer will strip compiled-in stuff out |
| 22:00 |
est31 |
+1 |
| 22:00 |
sfan5 |
it will still link to the system sqlite3 |
| 22:01 |
est31 |
its not our mission to fix their distro |
| 22:01 |
nrzkt |
if he wants distro only then there is no interest okay |
| 22:01 |
est31 |
if people want massively outdated software, they should be allowed |
| 22:01 |
nrzkt |
and i don't said fix their distro, if MT is a real engine, like he wants to said, why some critical performance deps are not embedded ? |
| 22:01 |
nrzkt |
like godot, urho, etc ? |
| 22:01 |
sfan5 |
did you not understand? |
| 22:02 |
sfan5 |
the debian package maintainers will remove this before making packages |
| 22:02 |
est31 |
godot is really bad at this |
| 22:02 |
est31 |
they produce gigantic fat binaries |
| 22:02 |
est31 |
also, we are not godot |
| 22:02 |
nrzkt |
est31 did you know like MT you have compilation options ? lol |
| 22:03 |
nrzkt |
then remove this useless outdated jsoncpp from repo permitting everybody to ensure they have the correct version with CPP11 optimizations :p |
| 22:03 |
nrzkt |
(except debian) |
| 22:03 |
sfan5 |
having jsoncpp installed is a lot less common |
| 22:03 |
Calinou |
nrzkt: Debian 7 users probably don't deserve performance (troll inside :P) |
| 22:03 |
sfan5 |
same with gmp |
| 22:03 |
est31 |
yeah |
| 22:03 |
nrzkt |
why jsoncpp is here ? no interest, outdated |
| 22:03 |
sfan5 |
this is why we have USE_SYSTEM_GMP and USE_SYSTEM_JSONCPP |
| 22:04 |
est31 |
^ |
| 22:04 |
nrzkt |
jsoncpp is used in quasi all C++ application to perform json |
| 22:04 |
sfan5 |
that doesn't make it any more common in "standard" installations |
| 22:05 |
sfan5 |
okay maybe not with gmp, it's probably in every linux distro |
| 22:05 |
est31 |
yeah |
| 22:05 |
nrzkt |
gmp is more common than jsoncpp yes |
| 22:05 |
est31 |
we ship mini gmp for windows users |
| 22:05 |
est31 |
I think gmp is included in gnu standard library |
| 22:05 |
nrzkt |
https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/x86_64/jsoncpp/ |
| 22:06 |
nrzkt |
qt5-webengine require it, after i think like us many embed it to ensure consistency |
| 22:06 |
nrzkt |
no GMP is not with STL, hopefuly |
| 22:06 |
nrzkt |
STL is a norm, GMP is not part of STL norm |
| 22:07 |
sfan5 |
est31: it isn't |
| 22:07 |
sfan5 |
however libintl is part of the GNU standard library |
| 22:10 |
est31 |
mhh I think you are right |
| 22:10 |
est31 |
so I remembered wrongly |
| 22:11 |
nrzkt |
GNU STL is a little bit bloated as libintl is not STL :( |
| 22:11 |
nrzkt |
BSD STL respect the standrd |
| 22:18 |
est31 |
yes |
| 22:18 |
est31 |
but BSD is almost not used except for network routers |
| 22:19 |
nrzkt |
est31, just lol |
| 22:19 |
nrzkt |
PS4, Wii U, Apple OSX... |
| 22:19 |
sfan5 |
darwin is not a real bsd |
| 22:19 |
nrzkt |
i didn't talk about kernel but userland |
| 22:19 |
nrzkt |
Apple is a FreeBSD userland. |
| 22:20 |
nrzkt |
with a mach micro kernel and a FreeBSD kernel |
| 22:20 |
sfan5 |
no the kernel is darwin |
| 22:20 |
nrzkt |
proof: apple change from ipfw to packetfilter exactly when FreeBSD changes the default in FreeBSD 9.1 or 9.2 |
| 22:20 |
nrzkt |
apple switches to clang when FreeBSD switched to clang |
| 22:21 |
nrzkt |
etc etc |
| 22:21 |
sfan5 |
the kernel is open source and it's not the same as freebsd |
| 22:21 |
nrzkt |
freebsd is used in juniper network OS, it's used by gandi hoster, by whatsapp and netflix |
| 22:21 |
nrzkt |
yahoo (lol) |
| 22:22 |
nrzkt |
netflix modified a little bit nginx & freebsd syscall to make one box deliver 96GBps content, they find this was impossible in linux |
| 22:23 |
est31 |
yes, BSD is better for networking |
| 22:23 |
est31 |
and netflix are great BSD fans |
| 22:23 |
nrzkt |
and STL also :) |
| 22:23 |
nrzkt |
and developpers are less acid than linux :p |
| 22:23 |
est31 |
PS4 has BSD because it can lock down the hardware |
| 22:23 |
nrzkt |
yes, but... it has bsd it's a fact |
| 22:23 |
est31 |
playstation had linux before |
| 22:23 |
nrzkt |
and; not only for hardware |
| 22:24 |
nrzkt |
jailbreak... it's native FreeBSD jails |
| 22:24 |
est31 |
but license forced them to allow people to modify the firmware |
| 22:24 |
nrzkt |
i saw a poc of jailbreak the exploit was very very very hard and it was perfectly same on FreeBSD (and patched) |
| 22:24 |
est31 |
nrzkt: yes, I've meant that, they would have been required to allow jailbreaks |
| 22:24 |
est31 |
didnt want it |
| 22:24 |
sfan5 |
est31: ps4 also has linux :D https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7946-console_hacking_2016 |
| 22:24 |
est31 |
either way, this discussion is offtopic |
| 22:25 |
nrzkt |
yes, and FreeBSD jails are at this moment the most robust containers in term of security, cgroup are not security mature and solaris zones are on solaris :( |
| 22:25 |
est31 |
sfan5: not per default |
| 22:25 |
sfan5 |
obviously not but it's possible |
| 22:25 |
sofar |
just use VT, much more secure than any container mechanism |
| 22:25 |
est31 |
great that hackers could break the drm |
| 22:26 |
est31 |
its ridiculous that you are not allowed to run your own code on your own hardware |
| 22:26 |
sfan5 |
tell that to apple |
| 22:26 |
sofar |
lol |
| 22:26 |
est31 |
yes, probably thats the reason why playstations are so cheap, but still |
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| 23:30 |
juhdanad |
I think #4985 should be merged as soon as possible, because it is really large and a merge conflict would be really inconvenient. And the concept is really good! |
| 23:30 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4985 -- Environment & IGameDef code refactoring by nerzhul |
| 23:30 |
est31 |
good point, but I think hmmmm should have a look at it |
| 23:31 |
est31 |
hmmmm: you want to? |
| 23:31 |
hmmmm |
oh god |
| 23:31 |
hmmmm |
oh god |
| 23:31 |
hmmmm |
please no |
| 23:32 |
juhdanad |
hmmmm: this could restore the proper class relations (partly) |
| 23:32 |
juhdanad |
also 'please no' for merge or to review? |
| 23:32 |
nrzkt |
in fact just review |
| 23:33 |
nrzkt |
the problem is actual igamedef is like spaghettis, you change one and... you have my pr |
| 23:33 |
nrzkt |
the diff is a little bit less big if you remove the split of env into three parts |
| 23:34 |
juhdanad |
nrkzt: I added my own review, too. |
| 23:35 |
nrzkt |
juha, and thanks for commenting some old cast i didn't modify because i didn't pass on it :) |
| 23:35 |
juhdanad |
In my eyes that PR is very important. |
| 23:37 |
nrzkt |
a 6th commit is import to show your fixes as you mention code parts in env and commit 1 just hide them if we squash |
| 23:39 |
nrzkt |
and yes commit 5 should be improved i only fix the compilation & remove the dup pointer, but textureshadersource can be obtained from client isntead of passing it, and also m_invmgr and maybe tsrc could be removed here : https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4985/commits/93ec7bbf80580daa30a1094885a07c78666e19ac#diff-65f34680878a6bd86f3a59ebc0c06c6dR89 to use m_client and m_client->tsrc() |
| 23:40 |
nrzkt |
juhdanad, i will go to bed, but if you have time and want to contribute to this pr go to my repo and the concerned branch and do a PR i will merge it tomorrow |
| 23:41 |
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| 23:41 |
juhdanad |
Sorry, it is also far over bedtime here. |
| 23:41 |
nrzkt |
like here :p |
| 23:41 |
nrzkt |
oh you are french too |
| 23:42 |
juhdanad |
No, from Hungary (CET). |
| 23:42 |
nrzkt |
oh yes i was tired :p i read the FreeNode country instead of your reverse hostname |
| 23:44 |
nrzkt |
good night, hmmmm don't hesitate to review, est31 too, the functional change is zero and the relations are cleaner and less obfuscated by IGameDef & server/client are less linked for nothing |
| 23:45 |
hmmmm |
please think of the 163 other pull requests when you do this |
| 23:58 |
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STHGOM joined #minetest-dev |
