| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:06 |
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| 00:09 |
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| 00:10 |
haole |
do we have an issue for this problem report? https://www.reddit.com/r/Minetest/comments/4ehcmd/mouse_moves_on_its_own/?st=iqa4ndm6&sh=6b9899ac |
| 00:10 |
haole |
couldn't find one, but maybe I'm missing it, otherwise I'll create it and try to come up with a patch |
| 00:10 |
haole |
I can reproduce it quite easily |
| 00:12 |
everamzah |
try: enable_joysticks = false |
| 00:12 |
everamzah |
i think it's related, couple of issues for that. recently fixed? |
| 00:12 |
everamzah |
default false maybe. |
| 00:12 |
haole |
everamzah: ok |
| 00:14 |
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| 00:14 |
haole |
everamzah: can't find the settings... is there an easy way to do it ingame? |
| 00:14 |
haole |
I mean, the entry enable_joysticks |
| 00:16 |
haole |
the entry doesn't exist with /set... should I create it? |
| 00:18 |
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| 00:18 |
haole |
everamzah: it fixes it! do you know if this was tracked in a github issue? I want to reply on reddit about this |
| 00:18 |
haole |
argh, no... it happened again :( |
| 00:19 |
haole |
is there a dev here? what's the best way of tracing minetest's code and where should I start regarding the mouse vs camera movement behavior? |
| 00:20 |
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| 00:21 |
robinspi |
@haole: I am no dev, and there are lickely no devs here. I would suggest trying out the forums |
| 00:24 |
whitephoenix |
there are tons of devs here |
| 00:24 |
whitephoenix |
theres also the minetest-dev channel |
| 00:24 |
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| 00:25 |
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| 00:29 |
haole |
ok! will try in the forums, but let me know if someone knows the answer |
| 00:29 |
haole |
(about the implementation) |
| 00:31 |
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| 00:32 |
robinspi |
I will. I think that there have been multiple projects with Minetest and VR, some motion tracking devices. I know there has to be some type of documentation for some of them. |
| 00:38 |
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| 00:51 |
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| 01:10 |
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| 01:19 |
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| 01:25 |
haole |
well, I cannot seem to be able to speak on #minetest-dev :( |
| 01:28 |
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| 01:36 |
robinspi |
@haole: I am not surprised. That channel is generally silent anyway. |
| 01:36 |
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| 01:39 |
haole |
created an issue for this: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4287 |
| 01:40 |
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| 01:45 |
robinspi |
Ahhh |
| 01:45 |
robinspi |
I have seen that before |
| 01:45 |
robinspi |
What mouse are you using, and are you on a laptop? |
| 01:46 |
robinspi |
@haole that is |
| 01:53 |
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| 02:18 |
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| 02:21 |
haole |
robinspi: laptop, but it happens with my usb mouse as well |
| 02:21 |
haole |
both touchpad and mouse |
| 02:27 |
swift110-phone |
ok |
| 02:34 |
robinspi |
interesting... I have had this happen before as I said... |
| 02:34 |
robinspi |
interesting... I have had this happen before as I said in the Github issue |
| 03:12 |
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| 06:06 |
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| 06:18 |
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| 06:19 |
Out`Of`Control |
hi |
| 06:31 |
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| 06:33 |
shangul |
how much does minetest eat my internet bandwidth while multi playing? |
| 06:33 |
shangul |
hai |
| 06:38 |
Svet |
i have no idea but i am wondering the same |
| 06:47 |
VanessaE |
shangul: not much, maybe 50 kBytes/sec or so, more if you're playing in a busy area on the server. |
| 06:49 |
VanessaE |
except when you join a new server for the first time, then you can expect as much as 40 MB of new data, at up to around 2 MB/sec or so if you're on a very fast server and your machine's sufficiently fast as well. |
| 06:49 |
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| 06:50 |
VanessaE |
(after which it slows down to a more "normal" speed) |
| 06:52 |
shangul |
k |
| 06:58 |
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| 07:30 |
Out`Of`Control |
is there option to flip with WE? |
| 07:30 |
Out`Of`Control |
90 or 180 degree |
| 07:38 |
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| 08:50 |
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| 09:05 |
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| 09:05 |
JamesTait |
Good morning all! Happy Wednesday, and happy International Kissing Day! 😘 |
| 09:06 |
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| 09:24 |
Calinou |
that's not my day :) |
| 09:35 |
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| 10:55 |
Out`Of`Control |
how disable death message? |
| 11:16 |
Krock |
edit source code? |
| 11:16 |
Out`Of`Control |
Krock: there is no option in config? |
| 11:16 |
Krock |
haven't seen one last time |
| 11:24 |
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| 11:33 |
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| 11:37 |
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| 11:37 |
haole |
just created a pull request to fix the weird "camera moving on its own" issue that I talked about yesterday: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4289 |
| 11:43 |
Krock |
looks good |
| 11:45 |
Krock |
but on which systems does this happen? |
| 11:50 |
haole |
Krock: windows 10 |
| 11:50 |
haole |
but may happen on others, I think |
| 11:55 |
* T4im |
imagines microsoft employees playing with haole's input devices for fun via their remote control mechanisms |
| 11:59 |
* haole |
gave up on privacy and controlling his own computer long ago... |
| 12:00 |
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| 12:00 |
haole |
but to be fair I have logs setup in my router and I don't see much home dialing from them (and I'm a long time linux user) |
| 12:03 |
T4im |
how do you check? if they connect via 80/443, quite a few things might be hidden inside your day to day web traffic |
| 12:04 |
T4im |
browsers are especially sneaky with that |
| 12:04 |
T4im |
even the open source ones could behave a bit better :( |
| 12:04 |
haole |
some IPs from their servers recommended by "the experts" |
| 12:04 |
haole |
but browsers are indeed sneaky and they are so on every platform |
| 12:04 |
T4im |
yea |
| 12:05 |
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| 12:05 |
haole |
:) |
| 12:05 |
haole |
btw, is there a port of minetest for webgl or similar ongoing? |
| 12:05 |
T4im |
not that I know of |
| 12:05 |
T4im |
but check github, maybe someone has experimented with that |
| 12:11 |
Out`Of`Control |
Krock: edite source code, deathloop is gone |
| 12:12 |
Krock |
good |
| 12:15 |
Out`Of`Control |
but fix is buggy, it eats more and more ram |
| 12:18 |
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| 12:19 |
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| 12:40 |
Fixer |
"Symantec's solution runs in the kernel, allowing any malware that targets it to have kernel permissions. They were also using “at least†seven-year-old forks of open source libraries" |
| 12:40 |
Fixer |
LOOOOL |
| 12:43 |
Calinou |
haole: no, there isn'(t |
| 12:43 |
Calinou |
-( |
| 12:45 |
haole |
have the devs seem this new language yet? http://terralang.org/ |
| 12:45 |
haole |
seems like a good choice for writing complex code in lua that runs really fast :) |
| 12:46 |
T4im |
if it's just about executing native code, you'd probably be better off with something like ffi or bindings from c |
| 12:46 |
T4im |
unless you want the engine to be rewritten in that :P |
| 12:48 |
haole |
T4im: no :) |
| 12:48 |
T4im |
for luajit that would maybe already work: http://luajit.org/ext_ffi.html |
| 12:48 |
T4im |
but would need still fallbacks for plain lua then |
| 12:49 |
haole |
sounds cool! I want to contribute to one minecraft-like game, and I was checking out both minetest and terasology, but I like minetest's approach better |
| 12:49 |
haole |
will try to ramp up and start contributing some code |
| 12:49 |
T4im |
great :) |
| 12:50 |
haole |
just the name is weird haha I have to explain to my friends that it's not a test of anything, it's a game (or game engine) |
| 12:54 |
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| 12:58 |
haole |
are there any mods around with advanced AI for mobs? |
| 13:27 |
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| 13:35 |
Calinou |
haole: no, but engine has built-in pathfinding |
| 13:35 |
Calinou |
don't expect something that will replace your Quake 3 bots |
| 13:40 |
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| 13:41 |
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| 13:45 |
Markow |
I've been testing both MT (C++ / Lua based) vs MC (Java based) in parallel. I must say, although I'm impressed by the efforts of the MT devs, the performance of MT is quite poor given that it is coded in C++ / Lua. Add to this, the 'world map' is also smaller. What does impress me is the speed of MC given: 1) Its large world size, 2) Coded in Java. This is my honest opinion. Conclusion: MT's performance, given it's C++ affiliation, should be exponentiall |
| 13:47 |
Krock |
!c 64000^3 |
| 13:47 |
MinetestBot |
64003 |
| 13:47 |
Krock |
!c 64000**3 |
| 13:47 |
MinetestBot |
262144000000000 |
| 13:47 |
Krock |
!c (2**32)**2 * 256 |
| 13:47 |
MinetestBot |
4722366482869645213696 |
| 13:47 |
Calinou |
C++ is only ~15% faster than Java |
| 13:48 |
Krock |
!c 'mc maps are ' + (4722366482869645213696 / 262144000000000) + ' bigger than the mt ones' |
| 13:48 |
MinetestBot |
TypeError: Can't convert 'float' object to str implicitly |
| 13:48 |
Calinou |
and, Minetest is very unoptimized, both in renderer code and mod code |
| 13:48 |
nore |
Markow: world sizes have nothing to do with speed, only a very small part of the world is loaded at once |
| 13:48 |
Krock |
!c (4722366482869645213696 / 262144000000000) |
| 13:48 |
MinetestBot |
18014398.509481985 |
| 13:48 |
Markow |
Calinou: I don't even see 15% performance increase of MT vs MC |
| 13:48 |
Calinou |
we use a pre-made renderer, Irrlicht |
| 13:48 |
Calinou |
Minecraft uses a custom-made renderer using LWJGL |
| 13:48 |
Markow |
That's where I believe the issue is, in Irrlicht |
| 13:48 |
Calinou |
Irrlicht is fast when used well |
| 13:48 |
nore |
Markow: Java/C++ has little to no impact on FPS too |
| 13:48 |
Calinou |
but, it was never made for voxel games… |
| 13:49 |
nore |
this is mainly the GPU that does the work |
| 13:50 |
nore |
to be short: being coded in C++ won't help, the bottlenecks are not there |
| 13:50 |
nore |
and, the world size has nothing to do with speed |
| 13:50 |
Markow |
Calinou: The "C++ is 15% faster than Java" is questionable. I think it's much faster than that, IMO by using both. |
| 13:51 |
swift110 |
good morning |
| 13:51 |
T4im |
stop comparing apples with oranges :D |
| 13:51 |
Calinou |
Markow: Java is very optimized for a JIT language |
| 13:51 |
Calinou |
it is, on average, slightly faster than C# |
| 13:51 |
Markow |
It's optimized, true |
| 13:51 |
Calinou |
it's compiled ahead-of-time just like C# and C++ |
| 13:51 |
Calinou |
(to bytecode, not native code, though) |
| 13:52 |
T4im |
C/C++ is AoT compiling, Java is using a JIT compiler additional to limited AoT |
| 13:52 |
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| 13:53 |
T4im |
which means it can do things like code inlining and loop unfolding over library boundaries that are unknown at compile time. So when you compare a highly modular C/C++ environment with a modular java environment, you can easily end up with java outperforming ansi C for that task |
| 13:53 |
T4im |
but of course it won't do that for monolithic arithmetics and that stuff |
| 13:54 |
Calinou |
also Java is faster to compile in most cases, IIRC |
| 13:54 |
Calinou |
and, once you compile it, it can run on any platform and architecture that supports Java |
| 13:54 |
Calinou |
(if it didn't do that, Minecraft would likely never have supported Linux, so be happy) |
| 13:55 |
haole |
java is great, if you are willing to put the energy needed on it :) |
| 13:55 |
haole |
but for me, it's way too verbose and counter-productive for fringe stuff |
| 13:55 |
Calinou |
Java is overall easier to write than C++ |
| 13:56 |
Calinou |
the syntax feels less obtuse, and it's garbage-collected |
| 13:56 |
Markow |
The expectation among even many coders was that a C++ version of MC would have much higher performance and speed. I code more in Java than in C++. |
| 13:56 |
Calinou |
I'd use the shit out of it if the GUIs produced by it looked decent :/ |
| 13:56 |
haole |
you like java's syntax? ok... |
| 13:56 |
Markow |
I do |
| 13:57 |
Calinou |
haole: generally when I look at C++, I see things like template<std::vector>**** |
| 13:57 |
Calinou |
you get it :P |
| 13:57 |
Markow |
Calinou: GUI's produced by utilizing JavaFX DO look great |
| 13:57 |
Calinou |
too many weird characters all over the place |
| 13:57 |
Calinou |
Markow: not on Linux |
| 13:57 |
Calinou |
let me start one |
| 13:57 |
twoelk |
I always had the impression mt was better on low end machines than mc and would indeed run on hardware too old to make mc even twitch a little. On high-end hardware though mt seems to start tripping |
| 13:57 |
Calinou |
well, they can look good if you make them yourself |
| 13:57 |
Calinou |
https://lut.im/tIty0cXIWG/lX8ebpdbzYjvYh8W.png |
| 13:57 |
Calinou |
this is a good Java GUI |
| 13:58 |
Markow |
I've been using JavaFX for a while now, on Linux only, and they look good |
| 13:58 |
Calinou |
but, it's not "native" |
| 13:58 |
haole |
terasology would be a more fair comparison to minetest, given the resources available |
| 13:58 |
haole |
and terasology is slower on my machine :) |
| 13:58 |
T4im |
Calinou: what gui is that? looks web based |
| 13:58 |
Calinou |
Terasology doesn't even run at 60 FPS here |
| 13:58 |
Calinou |
T4im: no idea… |
| 13:58 |
Krock |
Calinou, C++ isn't that complicated but Minetest is a big project and has calls functions across 20 different files |
| 13:58 |
Calinou |
it's PDFSam |
| 13:58 |
Markow |
Terasology runs poorly |
| 13:58 |
Krock |
*funcion calls |
| 13:59 |
Calinou |
Krock: "Remember: functions are fun!" --my PHP teacher |
| 13:59 |
Calinou |
he says that so that people don't write "fonction" instead (French for "function") |
| 13:59 |
Krock |
yes, they're really funny :) |
| 13:59 |
T4im |
maybe that's the first every good looking swing look and feel :D |
| 13:59 |
Krock |
eww, that looks awful |
| 14:00 |
T4im |
Krock: you haven't seen other swing look and feels |
| 14:00 |
T4im |
it's like it can do everything, but only colorblind people create l&f's |
| 14:01 |
T4im |
I mean, who comes up with something like http://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~cs3283/ftp/Java/swingConnect/friends/brokat/main_metal.gif |
| 14:02 |
Calinou |
about Java being fast to build |
| 14:02 |
T4im |
it looks like windows 95 had a child with my little pony |
| 14:02 |
Calinou |
NeoTextureEdit builds in 2 seconds here |
| 14:02 |
Markow |
Nice speed |
| 14:02 |
Krock |
hehe.. fancy windows inside and simple window style outside |
| 14:03 |
Markow |
T4im: Swing isn't JavaFX. Why are you showing Swing based GUIs? |
| 14:03 |
Fixer |
gui of java programs i seen were so ugly |
| 14:03 |
Markow |
Fixer: Not in JavaFX |
| 14:04 |
T4im |
because pdfsam uses swing according to wikipedia |
| 14:04 |
Fixer |
maybe |
| 14:04 |
T4im |
but maybe that's outdated |
| 14:04 |
Markow |
Most legacy apps coded in Java were mostly done with Swing |
| 14:04 |
Fixer |
banking program in java I seen was grey coloured crap |
| 14:04 |
Markow |
Probably utilized Swing |
| 14:04 |
T4im |
yes |
| 14:05 |
Calinou |
ok, here: https://lut.im/8Od8IkRPlF/cZRr6NLRHkmht8JN.png |
| 14:05 |
Markow |
Calinou: That's nice |
| 14:05 |
Calinou |
font rendering is horrible, buttons look bad |
| 14:06 |
T4im |
those widget's aren't |
| 14:06 |
T4im |
yea |
| 14:06 |
Calinou |
font rendering of my system is super pretty in comparison |
| 14:06 |
Calinou |
(using KDE, with Roboto font) |
| 14:07 |
Markow |
Java doesn't deserve the negative rap it receives from C purists. It's actually quite good. |
| 14:07 |
haole |
have you guys seen this game? http://www.quelsolaar.com/love/index.html |
| 14:09 |
T4im |
Markow: that's probably because they never bothered to look closer; but the same could be said about any language purist |
| 14:09 |
Markow |
T4im: Every language has its advantages / disadvantages |
| 14:10 |
T4im |
except for … ;-) |
| 14:10 |
T4im |
nah |
| 14:10 |
Calinou |
too bad NeoTextureEdit is no longer maintained… |
| 14:10 |
Markow |
Seriously, given that MC is in Java, I'd say it runs pretty damn well. |
| 14:10 |
Calinou |
Substance Designer beats it in every way, but it's proprietary, paid and runs only on Windows |
| 14:10 |
Calinou |
(Substance Painter does run on GNU/Linux though) |
| 14:11 |
T4im |
do you know of any open alternatives? |
| 14:12 |
T4im |
I mean gimp/inkscape/blender pipeline for stuff is obvious, but what else do you use? |
| 14:12 |
Markow |
I think Calinou hit it correctly: MT must be better optimized and I think it does have more potential to render faster without choppiness |
| 14:13 |
T4im |
if you find MT some rendering specialists, I'm sure everyone would appreciate that |
| 14:13 |
Calinou |
T4im: no |
| 14:13 |
Calinou |
T4im: GIMP and Blender are not tools specialized in procedural texture generation |
| 14:13 |
Calinou |
https://lut.im/giAFkV3UtH/c2gWdVYsx1tnEGw8.png https://lut.im/c31L7G9p7O/kgzG1NLsK90Fj7AP.png |
| 14:13 |
Calinou |
imagine if that was More Blocks Iron Stone :p |
| 14:13 |
Calinou |
iron stone tile* |
| 14:13 |
T4im |
I know that they aren't specialized in it, but they do have some features to that end |
| 14:13 |
Calinou |
or checker |
| 14:14 |
Calinou |
they really don't in my experience :( also, there's no 3D preview |
| 14:14 |
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| 14:15 |
T4im |
Calinou: https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:2.4/Manual/Textures/Types/Procedural |
| 14:15 |
Calinou |
making an open source alternative to Substance Designer/Painter is a lot of work |
| 14:15 |
Calinou |
T4im: those are not easy to merge together |
| 14:15 |
Calinou |
Blender does provide a graph system for merging them, but it sucks |
| 14:15 |
T4im |
yea, I know, it's pretty limited :/ |
| 14:16 |
T4im |
but then again, blender is so full of features already :D |
| 14:16 |
Markow |
Blender is a feature packed tool, I enjoy using it |
| 14:17 |
Calinou |
maybe someone could fork NeoTextureEdit, add more filters, PBR support… |
| 14:18 |
Calinou |
but basic stuff like data loss prevention or undo/redo is missing |
| 14:18 |
Calinou |
texture exporting is done all using the CPU, using only 1 thread, it's very slow for 2048×2048 textures which are common in games now |
| 14:19 |
Calinou |
(in comparison, Substance apps do it using the GPU) |
| 14:20 |
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| 14:20 |
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| 14:23 |
Markow |
Definitely enhanced performance is given when the GPU handles such |
| 14:24 |
Calinou |
but it's harder to make use of the GPU |
| 14:24 |
Calinou |
than of the CPU |
| 14:24 |
Markow |
It's takes the load off from the CPU |
| 14:24 |
Calinou |
Substance apps do it using DirectX 10 |
| 14:24 |
Calinou |
(compute shaders?) |
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agaran |
Hello |
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Krock |
hi |
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| 18:11 |
thePalindrome_ |
Fun fact: a bucket of water in minetest weighs 2,198 pounds |
| 18:11 |
thePalindrome_ |
Discuss |
| 18:11 |
KaadmY |
OH NOES |
| 18:11 |
Krock |
!g 2,198 pounds in kg |
| 18:11 |
MinetestBot |
Krock: Problem getting data from Google. |
| 18:11 |
thePalindrome_ |
997 kg |
| 18:12 |
thePalindrome_ |
I converted to pounds |
| 18:12 |
thePalindrome_ |
I hate being murican |
| 18:12 |
Krock |
huh? always use SI |
| 18:12 |
thePalindrome |
I have no sense of anything in SI units :P |
| 18:13 |
Krock |
!c 1 * 10**3 |
| 18:13 |
MinetestBot |
1000 |
| 18:13 |
thePalindrome |
That's assuming the ambient temperature is 25C in minetest |
| 18:13 |
Krock |
100 litres = 1000 kg |
| 18:13 |
Krock |
*1000 litres = 1000 kg |
| 18:13 |
thePalindrome |
? |
| 18:14 |
thePalindrome |
That's dependant on the temperature of the water |
| 18:14 |
Krock |
does -20°C water exist? |
| 18:15 |
thePalindrome |
I don't believe so |
| 18:15 |
Krock |
maybe it would because on the mt everest you only need about 70°C to cook water |
| 18:15 |
Krock |
if not less |
| 18:15 |
thePalindrome |
That's because the pressure, but... :hmm: |
| 18:16 |
Krock |
but no idea about the freezing temperature |
| 18:16 |
Krock |
heh, the mt everest would just melt away, so this is imposs |
| 18:18 |
KaadmY |
MT EVEREST |
| 18:18 |
KaadmY |
MT |
| 18:18 |
KaadmY |
MT |
| 18:18 |
Krock |
we, we get it |
| 18:18 |
Krock |
*ye |
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Fixer |
test |
| 18:45 |
Krock |
test |
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agaran |
tset? |
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jomat |
mine* |
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| 20:52 |
STHGOM |
is there anything that smoothes nodes out? |
| 20:52 |
Calinou |
no |
| 20:52 |
STHGOM |
dammit |
| 20:53 |
STHGOM |
i meant groups of nodes. not the actualy nodes themselfs. still no probly |
| 20:58 |
Calinou |
https://github.com/zyedidia/micro/commit/3d3b76a31c8b6bd1482095549679fb8bd4601547 |
| 20:58 |
Calinou |
:D |
| 20:58 |
Calinou |
(I contributed the color scheme) |
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| 21:02 |
Megaf |
Hi, can anyone confirm this on your Linux box please? |
| 21:02 |
Megaf |
#4292 |
| 21:02 |
Megaf |
-ShadowBot/#minetest-dev- https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4292 -- cmake fails to find postgre on Debian. Missing option to add include library. |
| 21:02 |
Calinou |
I'm not on Debian/Ubuntu |
| 21:02 |
Megaf |
the missing include library is OS independent |
| 21:03 |
Calinou |
I'm cloning Minetest Git to see |
| 21:03 |
Megaf |
Thanks |
| 21:04 |
Calinou |
-- Found PostgreSQL: /usr/lib64/libpq.so (found version "9.5.3") |
| 21:04 |
Calinou |
-- PostgreSQL backend enabled |
| 21:04 |
Calinou |
-- PostgreSQL includes: /usr/include |
| 21:04 |
Calinou |
works here… maybe a Debian/Ubuntu-specific bug? |
| 21:04 |
Calinou |
also why isn't gettext enabled by default? ._. |
| 21:09 |
Megaf |
hm |
| 21:16 |
whitephoenix |
I'm on debian testing, I'll try it in a minute |
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| 21:56 |
Fixer |
ugh, opera 10.63 with flash 9 will not run youtube on piii for some reason, maybe I didn't wait more enough |
| 22:00 |
Megaf |
Fixer, piii? What's that? |
| 22:01 |
T4im |
just remove flash then |
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| 22:02 |
Fixer |
removed, but it does not remove it completely |
| 22:02 |
T4im |
:/ |
| 22:10 |
Fixer |
T4im: it seems even those days it was piece of crap |
| 22:10 |
Fixer |
that can't uninstall itself |
| 22:12 |
Megaf |
Fixer, oh, you meant, Pentium III? |
| 22:12 |
Megaf |
Fixer, what about html5 version? |
| 22:13 |
Fixer |
Megaf: does not work I guess |
| 22:13 |
Fixer |
banned IE5 in firewall |
| 22:13 |
Fixer |
:3 |
| 22:14 |
Fixer |
T4im: deleted flash plugin for opera, so should be no problem |
| 22:20 |
T4im |
wait you installed an old version of flash? |
| 22:20 |
T4im |
and went into the internet? :o |
| 22:21 |
whitephoenix |
I'm so powerful I run everything as root |
| 22:21 |
whitephoenix |
and shitpost in the wrong channels |
| 22:22 |
Megaf |
good for you whitephoenix |
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Fixer |
T4im: yes, youtube only though |
| 23:58 |
AndDT |
Fixer: win98? |
| 23:58 |
Fixer |
yes |
| 23:59 |
AndDT |
I used to use it on my p1-mmx when I was interested in downgrade |
