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fluxionary |
seems the flowerpot issue only shows up when used in connection with another unknown mod |
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runs |
hi |
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MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> hi |
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hn |
hey, someone knows why i chose glass wall instead of node? harder to place and looks worse with glass doors... o.O |
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| 14:09 |
settl3r[m] |
hi, can structures in 2km altitude never be seen from the surface? |
| 14:09 |
settl3r[m] |
(on a skyblock server, someone said as much) |
| 14:10 |
settl3r[m] |
most skyblock servers restrict building, but one allowed unlimited building above +2000 altitude.. |
| 14:11 |
settl3r[m] |
..they said, in such a height these structures would not even cast a shadow. |
| 14:11 |
settl3r[m] |
I now wonder, if that is the case with default configuration. |
| 14:12 |
settl3r[m] |
..which would cause it to happen in every server which uses default mapgen. |
| 14:24 |
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| 14:40 |
erle |
settl3r[m] something something light propagation unloaded blocks |
| 14:45 |
settl3r[m] |
And another thing which i always wanted to know: how far away (horizontally) can one spot new structures, if arriving near them? i realized that there is a difference in the render distance, between first arrival and receding from a known structure.. |
| 14:46 |
settl3r[m] |
(i was on a server and tested the unlimited viewing range, and was surprised to be able to see several kilometers back to structures which i visited before, but couldn't see new structures as far away as these) |
| 14:47 |
settl3r[m] |
(..not only new structures, but i was unable to see new tiles further away than ~200-300 blocks or so) |
| 14:47 |
settl3r[m] |
So the question is really about render distance of nodes, not about structures. |
| 14:48 |
settl3r[m] |
Does it vary from server to server? But what is the default value? |
| 14:53 |
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| 14:55 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> ping erle |
| 14:55 |
erle |
pong MisterE |
| 14:55 |
erle |
peng |
| 14:56 |
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| 14:56 |
erle |
MisterE[m] new GNOME apps have hamburger buttons. sometimes even several of them, with several abstract icons. they used to have the windows-style menu bar. now there are a few things about usability: |
| 14:56 |
erle |
first, if you have more than one hamburger button it is not exactly clear which hamburger button menu contains which |
| 14:56 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> thats true |
| 14:56 |
erle |
second, i have rarely seen a labeled hamburger button. |
| 14:56 |
erle |
but that is not why i think this is how to spot bad designers |
| 14:56 |
erle |
the simple reason is: |
| 14:57 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> a hamburger button almost always means settings or context-specific menu |
| 14:57 |
erle |
to make a traditional windows-style menu bar you need to prioritize information in hierarchies, think about what belongs where |
| 14:57 |
erle |
to make a ribbon interface you need to do this too btw |
| 14:57 |
erle |
but for a hamburger button you have no need to do that, beyond ordering of options |
| 14:57 |
erle |
so bad designers almost always opt for the hamburger button as “everything else” |
| 14:58 |
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| 14:58 |
erle |
leading to long lists with no proper hierarchy |
| 14:58 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> so, once again, thats fine for very simple andorid-level apps |
| 14:58 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> for complicated apps, its not fine |
| 14:58 |
erle |
yeah, i know where the button comes from |
| 14:58 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> its fine for simple websites |
| 14:58 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> and webapps |
| 14:58 |
erle |
it is not fine for simple websites |
| 14:59 |
erle |
if the website is simple enough then it should show all the options |
| 14:59 |
erle |
hamburger buttons inhibit discoverability |
| 14:59 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> it saves space on small screens |
| 14:59 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> and often, the hamburger is only displayed on small screens |
| 14:59 |
erle |
i have heard this argument ONLY from people who have never used software on small screens for an extended time |
| 14:59 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> I have a phone... |
| 15:00 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> and use it |
| 15:00 |
erle |
let's take an example |
| 15:00 |
erle |
give me a few minutes to look one up |
| 15:00 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> its not great for usability, but it works, and its better than a crowded ui on a small screen |
| 15:02 |
erle |
https://content.minetest.net/packages/Wuzzy/mineclone2/ shows all these things at the top on my laptop. but as soon as i make the window half sized (tiling window manager) it shows a lot of white space and a single hamburger button |
| 15:02 |
erle |
even though there is more than enough space for the information |
| 15:03 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> I still like the hamburger ? |
| 15:03 |
erle |
yeah, but you would have to concede that just making the less wide design show all stuff immediately would be better for usability and discoverability, right? |
| 15:03 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> I agree, there could be a better cut-off size value there |
| 15:03 |
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| 15:03 |
erle |
it's not about the cut-off value |
| 15:04 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> for discoverablility yes, for usability, not so much |
| 15:04 |
erle |
it's about that you have a list of 8 things. that is NEVER too much for the screen. |
| 15:05 |
erle |
mods | games | texture packs | random | help | threads | search | sign in |
| 15:05 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> well, I guess, its more usable that way |
| 15:05 |
erle |
there are probably dozens of ways to arrange these on a small screen |
| 15:05 |
erle |
without taking up too much space |
| 15:06 |
erle |
but the website uses bootstrap |
| 15:06 |
erle |
because that works out of the box |
| 15:06 |
erle |
not because of its superiour usability |
| 15:06 |
erle |
like, no one uses bootstrap because it is OMG SO USABLE |
| 15:07 |
erle |
devs use it because it easy to set up and they do not know better or do not want to put in the effort or do not have time |
| 15:07 |
erle |
it saves dev time at the expense of good interface design |
| 15:07 |
erle |
so there is a good argument for using bootstrap here, depending on circumstances |
| 15:07 |
erle |
after all, dev time is limited |
| 15:07 |
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| 15:07 |
erle |
however, MisterE what you are arguing for if you argue *for* flat design is to put work in to make a LESS usable design. which only satisfies your aesthetic concerns. |
| 15:08 |
erle |
aesthetic concerns must always be subordinate to moral concerns |
| 15:08 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> asthetic concerns are very very mportant in a game |
| 15:08 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> ... moral concerns? |
| 15:08 |
erle |
i agree |
| 15:08 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> how is this moral? |
| 15:09 |
erle |
usability is a moral concern. not everyone is as smart or as invested as the devs. i have wasted countless hours of my life on bad interfaces or software with bad defaults and i consider myself an expert user. |
| 15:09 |
erle |
games are for fun |
| 15:09 |
erle |
so the interface must not be unfun |
| 15:09 |
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| 15:10 |
erle |
i think one of the best ways to figure this out is to get someone a bit drunk who has never seen your inferace and let them interact with it |
| 15:10 |
erle |
i think that's actually a service someone sells lol |
| 15:10 |
erle |
DUT (drunk user testing) |
| 15:10 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> there is a balence between asthetic and usability that must be sought. Simple UIs can lean more towards asthetic than usability, becase very little time must be spent to figure them out |
| 15:10 |
erle |
you figure out if your cues suck very fast that way |
| 15:11 |
erle |
you are making a false dilemma here |
| 15:11 |
erle |
there is no need to strike a balance |
| 15:11 |
erle |
interfaces can be well-designed, look good, and be usable |
| 15:11 |
erle |
in fact, all the best interfaces are like this |
| 15:11 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> one great way to make image buttons clearly buttons is the hover_image |
| 15:12 |
erle |
https://theuserisdrunk.com/ |
| 15:12 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> if they have a glow around them when hovered for example |
| 15:12 |
erle |
that is one of the worst ways to do it if there is no other cue |
| 15:12 |
erle |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_meat_navigation |
| 15:12 |
erle |
> Mystery meat navigation (also known as MMN) is a form of web navigation user interface whereby the target of each link is not visible until the user points their cursor at it. Such interfaces lack a user-centered design, emphasizing aesthetic appearance, white space, and the concealment of relevant information over basic practicality and functionality. |
| 15:13 |
erle |
MisterE the thing is, making usable interfaces that look good is hard. making interfaces that look good is super-easy. making usable interfaces is not easy. but both together is super hard. |
| 15:13 |
erle |
and simply because you obviously (from your arguments) think it is impossible you are not able to do it. yet. you can learn that! |
| 15:14 |
erle |
as long as you think it is a tradeoff between looking good and usability, as long as you think in this false dilemma, you have not learned enough about UX. |
| 15:14 |
erle |
there is a reason companies pay money for people who do nothing else than UX actually |
| 15:14 |
erle |
for example, hovering does not exist on many platforms |
| 15:14 |
erle |
how do you hover on an android? how do i hover without a mouse? |
| 15:15 |
erle |
i have a bunch of non-android linux computers that do not have a mouse or a touchpad, but only a touchscreen as a pointing device. how to hover? |
| 15:15 |
erle |
this is extremely important for web pages btw |
| 15:16 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> for android, like i said, its not a big deal because the ui is so simple, and theres no danger of actually doing anything bad while clicking around |
| 15:17 |
erle |
look, i hope it does not appear disrespectful, but you should really read up on some bad UX. the nielsen group has a lot of material about it. |
| 15:17 |
erle |
there are a lot of counter-intuitive results |
| 15:18 |
erle |
like that (plan9?) study where users reported that tasks using a mouse took them longer than using a keyboard. but it turned out that it was probably the cognitive load that distorts time perception. |
| 15:18 |
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| 15:18 |
erle |
so the devs had users that were constantly complaining about a task taking longer using the GUI even though it was objectively false |
| 15:19 |
erle |
no one expected that result obviously |
| 15:19 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> anyhow, the (certianly obvious) grey or single-color default formspec buttons look horrible. Also, Id much rather use I3 for an inventory than the unified inv |
| 15:19 |
erle |
regarding formspecs, what do you think of the mcl way? |
| 15:19 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> not sure... havent played mineclone much, Ill go check it out |
| 15:19 |
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| 15:20 |
erle |
MisterE start any mineclone, press escape and see if you like the buttons in the menu more. |
| 15:20 |
erle |
they definitely have the right cues |
| 15:20 |
erle |
or so i remember it, i have to check lol |
| 15:21 |
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| 15:22 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> so, it works... its flat, but slightly raised. Its a fairly bare theme tho |
| 15:23 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> its not ugly |
| 15:24 |
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| 15:28 |
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| 15:29 |
erle |
MisterE https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#content-structure-separation |
| 15:29 |
erle |
> Guideline 1.3 Adaptable: Create content that can be presented in different ways (for example simpler layout) without losing information or structure. |
| 15:30 |
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| 15:48 |
erle |
MisterE[m] have you ever heard of dieter rams? |
| 15:48 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> no |
| 15:49 |
erle |
MisterE[m] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieter_Rams |
| 15:49 |
erle |
check out his work. his industrial design has a HUGE legacy. |
| 15:50 |
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| 15:50 |
erle |
maybe you never saw this calculator, but you may know the apple calculator app https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dieter_Rams_i_Dieter_Lubs-_Calculator_Braun_ET66-1987.dhub.jpg |
| 16:01 |
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| 16:55 |
MinetestBot |
[git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest: upright_sprite: Fix walk animation in first person (#12194) 1d07a36 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/1d07a365528e3b947a03baba9ef986af2ecd23d1 (2022-04-15T16:55:08Z) |
| 17:04 |
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| 18:02 |
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| 18:08 |
erle |
how can i give an item together with metadata? |
| 18:11 |
Krock |
ItemStack():get_meta() ? |
| 18:11 |
Krock |
pass by userdata reference |
| 18:16 |
erle |
Krock no, i mean how can i /give an item together with metadata |
| 18:17 |
Krock |
erle: do the opposite first: create an itemstack and use to_string or whatsoever |
| 18:17 |
Krock |
it'll contain the metadata |
| 18:18 |
Krock |
there will be a few control characters though. I don't think that /give would convert the \uxxxx notation |
| 18:21 |
erle |
Krock so i can do it in vanilla? |
| 18:21 |
Krock |
erle: if you can copy&paste control characters to your clipboard and back, yes. |
| 18:21 |
erle |
uh why control characters though |
| 18:22 |
erle |
is this the item stack injection thing all over again? |
| 18:22 |
Krock |
because metadata key/values are separated by control characters internally |
| 18:22 |
erle |
oh yeah it is |
| 18:22 |
erle |
well i guess i have to code up my own command for adding items with metadata |
| 18:22 |
erle |
unless you have a bettar idea |
| 18:22 |
Krock |
how about... don't use command line for this stuff? |
| 18:23 |
Krock |
create a GUI to dump and write metadata |
| 18:28 |
erle |
Krock forget about it, i'm doing debugging here |
| 18:39 |
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| 19:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: you can also preprocess all chat messages to convert escape sequences into the respective control seqs |
| 19:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> or $...$ to execute Lua, IDK |
| 19:54 |
erle |
no no no |
| 19:54 |
erle |
luatic i want to set or get an items meta for research purposes |
| 19:54 |
erle |
i.e. debugging |
| 19:54 |
Desour |
or use a mod with a /lua chatcommand, like worldedit (would not suggest on public server though) |
| 19:54 |
erle |
is there a mod that makes it easy? if not i have to make some chatcommand |
| 19:58 |
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| 20:05 |
luk3yx |
<Plug for https://content.minetest.net/packages/luk3yx/snippets/> |
| 20:08 |
* Desour |
finds it sad that many new mods are uploaded to cdb, but not announced on the forums. |
| 20:08 |
Desour |
btw. is there a feed or similar to get notified for new mods, subgames and co. in cdb? |
| 20:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> why? the forums is broken/slow half the time which has contributed to less use of it |
| 20:09 |
Desour |
where is it broken? |
| 20:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> when it gives you 50* errors (granted this has been mostly fixed) |
| 20:09 |
Desour |
also, it wasn't very slow anymore the last few weeks |
| 20:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> anyways, the front page has recently added/updated |
| 20:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> of which you can click see more to get a listing |
| 20:12 |
Desour |
oh, I haven't seen (or used) the more button before. I thought that would only be the recently added ones, not all sorted by creation time |
| 20:19 |
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| 20:23 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> also, seems like no one has touched topic move requests in the forums in like a year+, but turn around time in contentdb (assuming you dont have issues) is 1-2 days max |
| 20:31 |
wsor |
^this isnt that bad when you consider the oldest pr is about 4 years old |
| 20:32 |
wsor |
april 1, 2018 or so github says |
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| 22:37 |
mazes_80 |
is there a ddos on ctf.rubenwardy.com |
| 22:37 |
mazes_80 |
t? |
| 22:41 |
mazes_80 |
the host is up, port seems active, server should be but any attempt to connect just times out ( not only for me) |
| 22:41 |
sfan5 |
which port do you expect the server on |
| 22:41 |
mazes_80 |
30001 |
| 22:42 |
sfan5 |
!up ctf.rubenwardy.com 30001 |
| 22:42 |
MinetestBot |
ctf.rubenwardy.com:30001 is up (6ms) (IPv4) |
| 22:42 |
sfan5 |
MinetestBot only test the low-level protocol of Minetest but there does look to be a server on that port |
| 22:42 |
mazes_80 |
every body just timed out so I guess or server crashed, or there is some weird things happening |
| 22:43 |
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| 22:43 |
mazes_80 |
as server should restart after crash, I think about second thing |
| 22:43 |
sfan5 |
maybe it froze |
| 22:44 |
mazes_80 |
ok people seems to be able to connect back |
| 22:44 |
mazes_80 |
sorry to disturb this channel, but #minetest-ctf is private now |
| 22:46 |
Facedancer |
Hi - I'm playing with Dreambuilder in 5.5.0, and something weird is happening that doesn't occur ion "Minetest Game", so I'm guessing there's either a mod or a setting causing it. Why do materials not immediately go into my inventory when mined/harvested, and instead end up as nodes in the game world? |
| 22:47 |
sfan5 |
that's called item_drop |
| 22:47 |
sfan5 |
or one mod that does this is, at least |
| 22:47 |
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| 22:49 |
lsab |
hello. How can I use or undo the bundle in currency mod? Someone can help me? |
| 22:53 |
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| 22:55 |
Facedancer |
Huh, I'm not seeing that included in the game, or in the settings. |
| 22:58 |
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| 22:58 |
runs |
hi |
| 22:59 |
mazes_80 |
hi runs |
| 23:00 |
mazes_80 |
another remark about petz here: cows poops are floating in air, may need to place them 1 block under or even check blocks under |
| 23:01 |
runs |
hi |
| 23:01 |
mazes_80 |
hope to help a bit |
| 23:01 |
runs |
ok |
| 23:01 |
runs |
i will check |
| 23:10 |
lsab |
How can I use or undo the bundle in currency mod? |
| 23:13 |
mazes_80 |
I really guess script kiddy is flodding ctf |
| 23:13 |
mazes_80 |
flooding* |
| 23:18 |
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Sven_vB joined #minetest |
