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MinetestBot |
[git] grorp -> minetest/minetest: Consistent width for internal scrollbars of formspec elements (#14689) d5fc040 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/d5fc040d2df2d31acb454c000b38b95860b039cf (2024-05-24T10:10:19Z) |
| 10:12 |
MinetestBot |
[git] grorp -> minetest/minetest: Scale C++ menus down to fit the window (#14690) 728f643 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/728f643ea76278dcf89f9ac066062e7b895e46c8 (2024-05-24T10:10:46Z) |
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| 18:10 |
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| 18:10 |
Blockhead256 |
rapid-fire question for the core team: would you consider WAV audio support y/n? conditions? |
| 18:11 |
Blockhead256 |
did you know that for very short files, wav can be smaller? https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=30521 |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> NO |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> But the longer answer is: NO WAY |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> But also, why? |
| 18:12 |
Krock |
one audio format keeps it uniform and simple (in the code) |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Also wav is proprietary |
| 18:13 |
Blockhead256 |
because as I said, for very short files, it's actually smaller than ogg due to no/low container overhead |
| 18:13 |
Blockhead256 |
proprietary? is it patented? |
| 18:13 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Microsoft |
| 18:14 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Do you want AI in your audio file? |
| 18:15 |
Blockhead256 |
I'm just talking about a PCM format, not anything weird. Though I didn't realise you could put mp3 or gsm audio inside it and that might confuse people who think their files will work |
| 18:15 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Blockhead256: how much smaller? does this yield any significant savings in the end that justify the complexity? |
| 18:15 |
Blockhead256 |
if you're allergic to wav with pcm, just because Microsoft invented why not be one of the objectors to zstd because facebook? |
| 18:15 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Mp3 is open source |
| 18:16 |
Blockhead256 |
the more codecs the more complexity and I wanted to ask for a dead-simple format |
| 18:16 |
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| 18:16 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oh don't worry it's pretty simple already cause it's ogg vorbis |
| 18:17 |
Blockhead256 |
luatic: you can shave 2000 bytes off a ~0.3-second long file https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=435994#p435994 |
| 18:17 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> 2kb |
| 18:18 |
ireallyhateirc |
Blockhead256, flac would be better if anything |
| 18:18 |
Blockhead256 |
well, the rest of my game's textures fit in a 454 byte PNG |
| 18:19 |
ireallyhateirc |
flac is lossless and compressed |
| 18:19 |
Blockhead256 |
so it's kind of annoying to have to have a 4 KiB file just for a fraction of a second of sound |
| 18:19 |
ireallyhateirc |
so would be more network efficient |
| 18:19 |
ireallyhateirc |
though still pretty fat |
| 18:20 |
Blockhead256 |
let me check the container overhead on FLAC... |
| 18:20 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Okay, VoxeLibre seems to have approximately 500 .ogg sound files for example. This means, in the best case, we could save up to 1 MB for VoxeLibre, in total. VoxeLibre, zipped, is ~50 MB on CDB. This doesn't really seem to be worth it tbh. |
| 18:20 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> If anything, opus is what you're looking for |
| 18:22 |
Blockhead256 |
the container overhead is smaller than for ogg-vorbis, but the file still ends up bigger than wav for a tiny file |
| 18:22 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Windows 98 supported 768mb max memory, with a max specced windows 98 machine you can load up that entire game into memory 15 times over. That was 26 years ago. Are we stuck there? |
| 18:23 |
Blockhead256 |
opus is more promosing, at 1347 bytes, only a bit bigger than 1123 for the wav |
| 18:25 |
Blockhead256 |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=435994#p435994 |
| 18:27 |
Blockhead256 |
still the smallest file size in the set is the wav+zstandard, but opus is the best compressed codec |
| 18:28 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I am just, kind of confused. Why are we shaving bytes off files when people will just export them unoptimized anyways? |
| 18:29 |
Blockhead256 |
well you see, I tried to make a game for Minetest in 4KiB, but I failed when I realised I'd need 4284 bytes just to have one sound |
| 18:30 |
Blockhead256 |
also, Audacity seems to choose the hardest compression by default when exporting... |
| 18:30 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> https://tenor.com/view/u-wot-m8-gif-20998179 |
| 18:30 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> This gif is compressed |
| 18:30 |
Blockhead256 |
GIF is dead, long live WebM and MPEG formats disguised as "GIF" |
| 18:31 |
Blockhead256 |
but seriously, either there's something inherently inefficient about audio compared to graphics and code, or Minetest doesn't have an efficient way to encode very short audio files |
| 18:32 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> B3d is horrible |
| 18:32 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the median sound file length in MineClone2 is apparently 0.65 seconds |
| 18:32 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> b3d isn't that bad |
| 18:32 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> VoxeLibre* |
| 18:32 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> It hurt me |
| 18:33 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Right in the brame, hab bramrbd fAmafr nooe |
| 18:33 |
Blockhead256 |
I can fit an ore progression, torches, edible blueberries, water.. all that in ~2500B of Lua and 454B of PNG. But the audio is massive |
| 18:33 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Wanna know a secret? |
| 18:34 |
Blockhead256 |
"sure"... rolls eyes preparing for some snide comment like "it doesn't matter" |
| 18:34 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Minetest is not optimized for the use case of making a game in 4 KiB and frankly that's a pretty niche use case :P |
| 18:34 |
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| 18:34 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Audio is a time based format, if you compress it to purely interpolated spec way out of real-time it starts to sound like farts |
| 18:35 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> If you took the same precision that audio needs and apply it to B3d you're going to have |
| 18:35 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> https://tenor.com/view/yuge-huge-donald-trump-gif-7357158 |
| 18:35 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Models |
| 18:36 |
Blockhead256 |
at least 3d formats have bones. No bones in my audio tracks! |
| 18:36 |
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| 18:36 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> You can grabble off a few bytes but then you're going to start sounding like the audio chipset has started to melt off the motherboard |
| 18:37 |
Blockhead256 |
anyway as the discussion had been lively enough... ever used SFXR? If Minetest could just decode SFXR files into audio that'd save heaps of space... |
| 18:38 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> If you can make it work in minetest I'm sure that will be allowed maybe possibly |
| 18:39 |
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| 18:39 |
Blockhead256 |
there's a strange disconnect between the default 16px hard pixel aesthetic and high-def sounds. Chiptune seems to make sense |
| 18:40 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> There is no aesthetic, minetest is some clay sitting on the side of the road waiting for you to pick it up |
| 18:40 |
Blockhead256 |
I said the "default" aesthetic. The Minecraft one, the Minetest Game one and the one most other games use... |
| 18:40 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Minetest game is legacy, the future is now |
| 18:41 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Also if you turn on texture filtering it becomes n64 so I think we might need a Yamaha emulator in there as well |
| 18:41 |
Blockhead256 |
hey, I can get behind a sound chip emulator. That'd save me heaps of space... |
| 18:42 |
Blockhead256 |
truecolor and hi-fi are overrated anyway |
| 18:42 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> This was of course a joke because the n64 does audio on the cpu |
| 18:42 |
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MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Also someone tell jeija to write a book on mesecons |
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| 19:59 |
Mantar |
audio tracker support when? |
| 19:59 |
Mantar |
need me some .mod files |
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Libresoldier79 |
hello |
