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| 14:20 |
repetitivestrain |
incidentally has anyone observed that the forums have been offline awfully frequently as of late |
| 14:20 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> the forums are always terrible. the level of terrible comes and goes in waves |
| 14:22 |
sfan5 |
didn't we have someone monitor the forum uptime |
| 14:22 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Bracket> cheapie: you can use a C like language with beduino |
| 14:22 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Bracket> or do i need rto use tell |
| 14:22 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> buckaroo monitors pretty much everything luanti related |
| 14:23 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> https://monitoring.luanti.ch/ |
| 14:24 |
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| 14:24 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> 8.37 million clients |
| 14:24 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> hm, seeing https://monitoring.luanti.ch/d/xUp66EYGz/minetest-forum-user-stats?orgId=1&from=now-1y&to=now&timezone=browser&refresh=10s, i think there used to be a uptime one. maybe removed it due to c55 complaining |
| 14:24 |
sfan5 |
it's on https://monitoring.luanti.ch/d/xtkCtBkiz/minetest-websites-status? |
| 14:25 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> ah, there it is |
| 14:25 |
sfan5 |
however it only goes back like 5 days |
| 14:25 |
repetitivestrain |
why does it state the forum to be up when it still yields a 504 bad gateway for me |
| 14:25 |
repetitivestrain |
ah it must've recovered during the past 10 minutes |
| 14:26 |
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| 14:26 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> anyways, the solution to the forum is always one of two. convince c55 to actually do something, or get him to give it up. |
| 14:28 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> at least docs have amazing uptime now :p |
| 14:50 |
cheapie |
[09:22:29] <[MatrxMT]> <Bracket> cheapie: you can use a C like language with beduino |
| 14:51 |
cheapie |
That's the language I was talking about not being very familiar with |
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[MatrxMT] |
<Bracket> I see |
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| 16:55 |
kyle56 |
is there a way to migrate the database format? like i DONT mean database type like sqlite to postgres. i mean changing from the pos,data columns to the new x,y,x,data columns without making a new world? |
| 16:56 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> not sure if there is a better method, but the old trick was migrate it to another format and then migrate it back |
| 16:56 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> also not sure if that trick works for the x/y/z format |
| 16:57 |
kyle56 |
hmm i guess i should try that. but it kept telling me that leveldb was not a valid database type. i dont really wanna set up postgres. so i would like to maybe convert from sqlite to leveldb and back to sqlite |
| 16:58 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> probably because you didnt compile leveldb in? |
| 16:58 |
kyle56 |
hmm dunno. i just used the flatpak. does it not come with leveldb? |
| 16:58 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> also leveldb is unreliable af, but as a temp holder should be fine |
| 16:59 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> uh, --help or one of the command line options has the build config |
| 16:59 |
kyle56 |
thats my rationale too heh. just need a easy temporary medium |
| 17:00 |
sfan5 |
the trick works yes |
| 17:00 |
sfan5 |
but you need a second format for it to work |
| 17:00 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> --version |
| 17:00 |
sfan5 |
--version doesn't show the database backends unfortunately |
| 17:00 |
sfan5 |
neither does help |
| 17:01 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> rip |
| 17:01 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> probably should make issues for showing db backends in --version and a straight up --migrate |
| 17:02 |
kyle56 |
i might have been typing it wrong. i tried these parameters: `--server --worldname example --gameid minetest_game --migrate level_db` but i did also try 'leveldb' |
| 17:04 |
kyle56 |
i agree that would be nice. |
| 17:04 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/issues/16439 |
| 17:07 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/issues/16440 |
| 17:52 |
sfan5 |
the flatpak build probably only supports dummy and sqlite3 |
| 17:52 |
sfan5 |
which means you're out of luck |
| 18:02 |
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| 18:50 |
kyle56 |
oh. thats unfortunate. but thanks for letting me know. |
| 18:52 |
sfan5 |
out of curiosity: why do you want to update your world format? |
| 18:53 |
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| 18:57 |
kyle56 |
i wanna play more with sqlite queries. like using special queries to delete certain areas. and while i havent made the feature request yet, it gave me an idea for how core.delete_area could be optimized. |
| 19:02 |
kyle56 |
i think someone on the lunati team had touted this as a benefit. basically running a command like this `DELETE FROM blocks where (x < %d or x > %d) or (y < %d or y > %d) or (z < %d or z > %d);` in this case, this is made to delete all blocks outside of a specified zone. but could be tweaked to delete all blocks INSIDE of a zone and i think core.delete_area could use it to work faster. |
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| 20:03 |
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| 20:03 |
MinetestBot |
erle: Aug-22 00:02 UTC <luatic> AFAICT, there is no magic "if you have this GPU, set this near plane". check logs |
| 20:03 |
erle |
oki |
| 20:12 |
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| 20:31 |
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| 20:31 |
erle |
luatic i don't understand anything from the logs. but “a proper solution is to let the game devs control the value” is a good joke! |
| 20:32 |
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| 21:07 |
erle |
luatic so what does the near plane setting depend on and why can't it be checked programattically? |
| 21:30 |
luatic |
erle: it depends, among other things, on the game. you could try to have some "magic" that infers from scene geometry what a sensible value might be but generally it's best if game devs are able to control it. |
| 21:30 |
luatic |
proper camera control includes control of the entire view frustum, including near and far planes. |
| 21:31 |
luatic |
to give an example from something i'm a bit familiar with, the glTF "model" (more like "scene"?) file format lets you control these, see https://registry.khronos.org/glTF/specs/2.0/glTF-2.0.html#cameras. |
| 21:32 |
luatic |
godot, like any other 3d game engine, unsurprisingly also lets you control the near plane: https://docs.godotengine.org/en/stable/classes/class_camera3d.html#class-camera3d-property-near |
| 21:33 |
erle |
luatic i am pretty sure that “let someone who has even less diverse hardware than the coredevs” works even less well than letting the engine handle it through e.g. depth buffer bit depth or whatever in practice |
| 21:33 |
erle |
also overdraw is not a problem, is it? |
| 21:33 |
erle |
underdraw is xray |
| 21:33 |
erle |
well, unless you overdraw and see 2 triangles blocking your entire view |
| 21:34 |
sfan5 |
you seem to be expecting a game engine to serve the player instead of the gamedev? |
| 21:35 |
erle |
oh indeed. stuff like “every dev has the *option* to implement a graphics settings menu” (several engines do this) results in games being less-than-friendly to players |
| 21:36 |
erle |
i actually think this is a core part of why luanti has so many (mostly short-lived) forks. almost all of them fill the space “what if the engine lets the players adjust more”. the extreme ones are e.g. cheat clients and halons “i make a custom client so mineclonia works better in it” fork. |
| 21:36 |
sfan5 |
your latter example is literally the opposite |
| 21:37 |
sfan5 |
oh you said "almost all" |
| 21:38 |
erle |
well, i am showing a spectrum. and it's pretty clear that luanti will neither be customizable enough to people who want accessability/scripting features (i.e. ultimate player-friendly) nor take patches to benefit only a single name (i.e. ultimate dev-friendly) |
| 21:39 |
erle |
single game |
| 21:39 |
erle |
typo |
| 21:39 |
erle |
but yes, i do believe that a game engine (and all software) should have settings and that server-sent things must be “hints” like in the browser where you can override all CSS |
| 21:39 |
erle |
and i am pretty convinced that the coredevs do believe that a lot of stuff should never be overridden or user-settable, correct? |
| 21:40 |
erle |
in any case, the question of settings is usually an aesthetic one. unintentional xray is not aesthetics, but functionality. and if it can be configured automatically, it should, but i have no idea how. |
| 21:41 |
erle |
it's too important to leave it to a game dev who probably has only 1 or 2 GPUs |
| 21:42 |
erle |
if you leave functional settings to gamedevs, you end up with a per-game equivalent of the “no text rendering on my tablet” luanti bug |
| 21:43 |
sfan5 |
compared to "real" game engines luanti is extremely limited, a part of that is a lot of things being left up to user settings |
| 21:44 |
sfan5 |
and I think it's pretty clear what the consensus on direction is |
| 21:44 |
erle |
well, say it? |
| 21:44 |
sfan5 |
become more flexible like a real game engine? |
| 21:45 |
erle |
that does not address anything regarding aesthetics or functional settings |
| 21:46 |
sfan5 |
it will be necessary to some extent, exactly how much is debatable |
| 21:47 |
erle |
btw, what was the rationale on specific values of near_plane? i mean you removed it and set a value, so where does that come from? experimentation? |
| 21:48 |
sfan5 |
I wouldn't know |
| 21:48 |
erle |
you forgot about it or you never knew? |
| 21:48 |
sfan5 |
why do you think I know in the first place? |
| 21:50 |
erle |
because you approved PR #8749 |
| 21:50 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/issues/8749 -- Ignore near_plane setting on non-Android platforms by ClobberXD |
| 21:50 |
erle |
so i assumed you knew what you were doing there, but it's years ago, so |
| 21:52 |
sfan5 |
if you read the PR you will see that someone did some experimentation on different values and based on that we arrived at a conclusion |
| 21:53 |
sfan5 |
and that someone isn't me |
| 21:56 |
erle |
you had some musings about lower end GPUs though and you did immediately suggest adjusting the near_plane, so i thought you know. but i get it, we both don't. if i find out what exactly determines how this setting should be, i'll tell you. |
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| 22:49 |
kyle56 |
I dont have the full context but on the subject of near planes, is that something that the server gonna be able to set? I hope so because I have a mod that can make players tiny. And when they are tiny, they can get up close and look through walls. |
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