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IRC log for #luanti, 2025-11-18

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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02:26 helixnebula77 is there a way to get luanti api completions with the lsp in vscode? theres a guide in the docs discussing how to do this but the luanti-api project it links has 404'd
02:26 helixnebula77 https://docs.luanti.org/for-creators/development-setup/
02:27 MTDiscord <greenxenith> It isnt as integrated as LSP, but there is https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=GreenXenith.minetest-tools which autocompletes using snippets
02:28 MTDiscord <wsor4035> see https://github.com/luanti-org/docs.luanti.org/issues/291 regarding the broken link
02:30 helixnebula77 oh i see what the extension is doing now, i loaded up some code and it said 'core
02:30 MTDiscord <wsor4035> honestly that page being named dev setup is highly misleading
02:30 MTDiscord <greenxenith> (the LSP link is now https://git.minetest.land/andro/luanti-api)
02:30 helixnebula77 ' was udefined but when i actually type out core.* it has completions
02:30 helixnebula77 (sorry i accidentally hit enter while typing my message)
02:31 helixnebula77 i have seen some doc on how to set up emmylua in emacs! maybe i will try that
02:31 helixnebula77 unless emmylua works with vscode too
02:32 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Pretty much everything works with vscode
02:32 MTDiscord <wsor4035> should probably turn that more into a router page that recommends minetest-tools, alt whats in it now, luacheck (some ci), and links to dev tools for more info
02:33 MTDiscord <greenxenith> I'd like to obsolete my extension and that LSP with official generated definitions-from-docs, but we arent at that point yet
02:34 [MatrxMT] <Andro> the luanti-api on git.minetest.land is the most complete one that I know of, but it's still incomplete and subject to major changes
02:34 MTDiscord <wsor4035> so which version or bust do we pick for that goal :juanchi_face:
02:34 helixnebula77 i see, sounds like a mess
02:34 helixnebula77 what do most mod devs do?
02:34 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Hence why I would like to make it obsolete via generating snippets from machine-readable documentation
02:34 MTDiscord <wsor4035> <bias disclosure: author>
02:35 MTDiscord <greenxenith> er, s/snippets/definitions
02:35 MTDiscord <wsor4035> most use minetest-tools
02:36 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> just search the docs 4head
02:36 MTDiscord <wsor4035> thats where everyone starts
02:36 MTDiscord <greenxenith> searching the docs doesnt make me type faster
02:36 MTDiscord <wsor4035> just ai generate your code :trollface:
02:37 helixnebula77 i am absolutely not using copilot lol
02:37 MTDiscord <wsor4035> why type faster when you can type less
02:37 user333_ don't use ai for programming... ever
02:37 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Or do, why care?
02:37 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> you shouldn't be afraid to throw code out if it's bad. Triply so for AI code
02:37 MTDiscord <greenxenith> No difference in curating AI code than human code
02:37 user333_ writing it yourself will (usually) output more efficient code
02:38 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Bold of you to assume the intent is efficiency
02:38 MTDiscord <wsor4035> should have skipped the ai joke, brought out the anti ai zealots as per usual
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02:38 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Some people need to achieve the "its written" part
02:38 user333_ and AI sucks at programming overall :P
02:38 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Its better at it than a majority of folks
02:39 MTDiscord <wsor4035> ai is a tool like any other. a poor craftsman blames his tools
02:39 MTDiscord <greenxenith> This is like a craftsman criticizing a CNC router. Your usecase is not the point.
02:39 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> `core = minetest` :)))
02:39 helixnebula77 wsor4035: when you say most use minetest-tools, this is what came up on google and i dont think this is correct? https://github.com/orgs/minetest-tools/repositories
02:39 MTDiscord <greenxenith> minetest-tools is the extension I linked earlier that you are already using
02:39 MTDiscord <wsor4035> you where linked it previously: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=GreenXenith.minetest-tools
02:39 helixnebula77 oh the vscode one!
02:40 helixnebula77 okay i think ive got this figured out as best as it can be
02:40 helixnebula77 thanks
02:41 MTDiscord <wsor4035> in addition to ai being a tool, its also a tech advance. we dont have factories where everything is built by hand anymore
02:41 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Eventually ill add other actually useful things to that extension, like Luanti as a debugger, other config file parsers, CDB integration, formspec editor, nodebox editor ... some year
02:41 MTDiscord <wsor4035> in 2k38? 😛
02:41 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Sounds good to me
02:42 MTDiscord <wsor4035> gonna have to send you back to 1970
02:42 user333_ the equivelant of 0 on unix-based systems?
02:42 user333_ (year 0)
02:44 MTDiscord <wsor4035> i wouldnt limit it to just unix as programming langauges and applications also assume that
02:45 user333_ well it's most known for being 0 on unix-based systems...
02:45 MTDiscord <wsor4035> hmm, so windows does since 1601, .net uses 1 ad, dos apparently? used to use 1980 for some reason
02:45 user333_ anyway, here's my favorite excuse for why ai code is bad: https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/pull/16447
02:45 MTDiscord <wsor4035> whatever, time is evil
02:46 user333_ (i'm not saying ALL ai code is bad though)
02:46 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> it's definitely originated in UNIX and codified in POSIX, even if it gets used other places
02:46 MTDiscord <wsor4035> fair enough
02:47 user333_ what about other OSes, like iOS (not macOS as it's too similar to unix and android as it's too similar to unix as well)
02:48 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> iphoneOS iPadOS and macOS are all in the Darwin family so I expect they all use the same
02:49 MTDiscord <wsor4035> i wanna give an ai response just to troll
02:49 user333_ -_-
02:49 user333_ related question, is there any movement towards iOS support for luanti?
02:49 MTDiscord <wsor4035> https://support.apple.com/guide/shortcuts/format-date-timestamps-apdfb33b0e17/ios but here is an actualy answer (uses unix epoch)
02:50 MTDiscord <wsor4035> see the pr
02:50 MTDiscord <wsor4035> and/or sfence. same thing really
02:50 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> the usual wisdom on iOS is that apple wouldn't allow it onto the app store anyway because they hate free software licences
02:50 user333_ huh, i though iOS was apple's own OS that was completely independant from unix
02:51 user333_ looks like some unix slipped in
02:51 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Both iOS and MacOS are built on Darwin which is a Unix-like
02:51 user333_ apple: "no you can't put FOSS stuff on our app store because we hate FOSS for some reason"
02:51 MTDiscord <wsor4035> more accurately bsd based
02:52 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> they didn't start from nothing, the same way Android didn't start from nothing but started from Linux. But yeah, Macs have a mongrel filesystem that has the old UNIX paths on / (root filesystem) but also its own, Titlecased directrories
02:52 MTDiscord <wsor4035> thought they ditched that and are on APFS now
02:53 user333_ i personally use debian/ubuntu linux and sometimes windows 11 so i have nearly no knowlege of how apple stuff works
02:53 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Apple does, in fact, allow FOSS apps. Usually the only issue is GPL and certain derivatives
02:53 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> apple doesn't want you to know this, but you can run a hackintosh on your x86 PC for free in a VM. It doesn't run arm, but I have actually used it to produce apple silicon valid programs with a linker or something like that (after paying for a cloud mac mini once to make it the first time)
02:53 MTDiscord <wsor4035> pretty much the only thing i dont use on the regular is bsd (directly, yes a lot of infra is on bsds)
02:54 user333_ someone make luanti builable for iOS, pretend it's closed-source, and get it on their app store :)
02:54 MTDiscord <wsor4035> thats essentially multicraft
02:54 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Wouldnt need to pretend, since Apple allows FOSS apps
02:54 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> yeah there's some confusion about it to me, because Luanti is LGPL, but apple hating GPL was always cited.. doesn't sound quite correct. Maybe it's that source availability of apple's own libraries is needed? Doesn't sound right either
02:55 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Part of it is store fees
02:55 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Its $100 for a developer license or something
02:55 user333_ ;-;
02:55 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Which isnt all that much, honestly, but still a weird barrier to entry
02:55 MTDiscord <wsor4035> which as a nonprofit you can get waved
02:55 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> they still do that? you can get android ones for free these days most of the time
02:55 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Oh, cool. Win for us then
02:55 MTDiscord <wsor4035> androids like $25 or something
02:56 MTDiscord <wsor4035> tho android is one time vs apples yearly
02:56 MTDiscord <wsor4035> you would think for the cash they rake in they could make xcode less shit
02:56 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> oh here it is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38966559 they won't comply with LGPL
02:57 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Ah, yes, Xcode. The other barrier to entry.
02:57 user333_ or at least support running other OSes on their hardware like literally every other PC manufacturer
02:57 MTDiscord <greenxenith> On older mac hardware you can run any OS you want
02:58 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> you can install Luanti via F-droid or you own built APK. No such luck unless you jailbreak iOS
02:58 user333_ older macs at least, can run other OSes
02:58 MTDiscord <greenxenith> On newer Macs you can run ARM OSes (see Asahi Linux)
02:58 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> we should get Luanti on Cydia lul
02:59 user333_ yea i saw that the other day when i was looking for linux ISOs to add to my collection
02:59 user333_ i have like 26 different distros
02:59 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Worth noting that VLC is LGPL and available on iOS, so there is absolutely a way to make it work
03:00 user333_ huh!
03:00 MTDiscord <greenxenith> And VLC started out as GPL, no less
03:00 user333_ or provide a guide on how to jailbreak your device and install android
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03:01 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Thats not really how it works
03:01 user333_ sadly
03:01 MTDiscord <wsor4035> https://stackoverflow.com/a/39438539
03:01 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> no you're not putting android on an iPhone/Pad, you're at best getting a few jailbroken app stores working and the ability to load IPAs
03:03 MTDiscord <greenxenith> tl;dr the only thing really stopping us from putting Luanti on the appstore is our available time and energy
03:03 MTDiscord <wsor4035> ....its not? https://code.videolan.org/videolan/vlc-ios/-/blob/master/COPYING?ref_type=heads
03:04 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> thank you gitlab for the banner that says AGPL lel
03:04 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Fine, the VLC core is LGPL
03:04 user333_ Blockhead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0_Aou3eZl8
03:04 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Even better that the iOS app is GPL, now no one has any excuse
03:04 MTDiscord <wsor4035> was just about to follow up with that
03:04 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> LGPL for libraries seems to be ok on iOS
03:04 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> so is it okay for VLC because of MPL?
03:05 MTDiscord <wsor4035> its ok because the wrapper is mpl and lib lgpl
03:05 MTDiscord <wsor4035> so technically you would need to license and code linking bullshit for ios
03:05 MTDiscord <wsor4035> well, to be fair its ios, so bullshit was implied
03:05 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Regardless, the stackoverflow answer explains why LGPL is just as acceptable
03:07 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> I think ultimately the real reason is nobody wants to pony up for an app store license (or get it waived, or for it to only work on jailbreaks) and there's just not that many apple people in the community
03:07 MTDiscord <wsor4035> not true
03:07 MTDiscord <wsor4035> sfence already pays for one (or has it waved)
03:08 MTDiscord <wsor4035> its how the macos binaries are signed
03:08 MTDiscord <greenxenith> That stackoverflow answer also explains why jailbreaks arent necessary either
03:08 user333_ as long as linux support never ends, i'm fine
03:09 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Alright guys, time to end Linux support. Its been a good run. Just cant do it any more.
03:09 user333_ NOO
03:09 user333_ o7 luanti community
03:10 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> I may be misremembering, but doesn't the free apple ID signing only last a week or so?
03:10 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> good enough for developers I guess, then we have signing that lasts for the app store release anyway
03:11 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Maybe so. But side-loading is also a mandatory feature for European models now, no?
03:11 user333_ don't ask me, i'm in north america \_('_')_/
03:12 user333_ southeast canada, to be precise
03:12 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Eh
03:12 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> we'll have to wait and see for both Android and iOS to be honest. Android trying to get everything signed by them, and I haven't heard of iOS actually making progress on sideloading
03:13 user333_ android wants ppl to only install from the play store, you can still install from APKs atm though
03:13 MTDiscord <wsor4035> iirc japen is forcing the other app stores thing as well now
03:13 MTDiscord <wsor4035> maybe if enough countries tell apple to take a hike they will finally cave
03:14 user333_ ah yes, japen, my favorite country
03:14 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> :\ just a bit rude tbh
03:15 MTDiscord <wsor4035> those not using a handy capped platform see edits
03:15 user333_ irc ftw...
03:15 MTDiscord <wsor4035> (yes matrix doesnt see them here, but thats because irc acts as a 1990s blocking layer)
03:15 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> wait Matrix isn--- nah okay
03:16 user333_ doesn''t help i'm using an IRC client that hasnt been updated since like 2013
03:16 user333_ still works though
03:16 MTDiscord <wsor4035> matrix is discord at home, which personally makes me hate it more than irc sometimes. irc is stuck in the 90s, but at least it works. matrix can drive you insane
03:17 MTDiscord <greenxenith> If you think of each IRC network like a server, and each channel as a server channel, and then tack generated profile pictures to everyone, you've basically got poor mans matrix/discord/slack/whatever
03:17 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Which is a terrible analogy because networks usually have thousands of channels
03:17 MTDiscord <wsor4035> thats stretching poor mans quite a bit
03:17 MTDiscord <wsor4035> for various reasons
03:18 user333_ i wrote my own IRC client/server in python earlier this year
03:18 MTDiscord <greenxenith> I hope you recover
03:18 user333_ i was lazy and didnt handle PMs properly tho..
03:19 MTDiscord <wsor4035> i need to bite the bullet and use cinny for a while as my main matrix client instead of flirting with it
03:19 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> re: SFENCE: so they have a signing key, probably use a Mac. But it still sounds like we have no talent/effort for the port itself
03:19 MTDiscord <wsor4035> ....they made the ios pr
03:19 MTDiscord <wsor4035> unless your insulting them and im missing it
03:20 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> .. I need to get better informed
03:20 MTDiscord <wsor4035> yeah
03:20 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/pull/15451 yeah?
03:20 MTDiscord <greenxenith> I feel like all of your statements in the last half hour have been disproven by links given to you prior to your statements
03:20 MTDiscord <wsor4035> yes
03:20 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> yeah looks like it
03:21 MTDiscord <wsor4035> bad day blockhead?
03:21 MTDiscord <greenxenith> when you install cinny, ill install it too, wsor
03:21 MTDiscord <wsor4035> https://tenor.com/view/doubt-press-x-la-noire-meme-x-button-gif-19259237
03:21 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> nah I'm not having a bad day I'm getting my misconceptions corrected
03:21 MTDiscord <greenxenith> I am serious, matrix is annoying as hell
03:21 MTDiscord <greenxenith> element
03:21 MTDiscord <greenxenith> you know what I mean
03:21 MTDiscord <wsor4035> to be fair, there is a public instance, so not that hard to switch
03:22 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Blockhead: I think the point was more about all the answers being in front of you already ;p
03:22 MTDiscord <greenxenith> I appreciate that Cinny has a yellow dark theme
03:22 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> yes, I did need to slow down and read a bit. But I will say I had no idea about the PR, so that wasn't "prior"
03:23 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Oh, my bad, I thought it had been linked. Apologies.
03:23 user333_ new challenge: make 5.15 have support for windows 95
03:24 MTDiscord <wsor4035> hmm, lets go see if the featured clients list has changed element: shit fluffy chat (isnt this a fork of element? could be wrong) cinny: need to try with it element x, way to limited v2 element, but in purgatory for outside business use nheko: desktop, cool i guess? but looking for web personally
03:24 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Ew, nheko looks awful
03:24 MTDiscord <wsor4035> SchildiChat is the fork of element, not fluffy chat
03:25 MTDiscord <wsor4035> referenced, not linked iirc
03:25 user333_ or pick a nice IRC client and join me
03:25 MTDiscord <wsor4035> i have the lounge already, and im good
03:25 MTDiscord <greenxenith> fluffychat and nheko are messenger skins for matrix ... messengers were not built for IM servers
03:25 wsor4035 user333_: nah
03:25 user333_ :c
03:26 MTDiscord <wsor4035> tf does this mean?
03:26 MTDiscord <wsor4035> matrix is the protocool
03:26 MTDiscord <greenxenith> The back and forth text bubble style
03:26 MTDiscord <greenxenith> That is for one-on-one conversation, massive group messaging.
03:26 MTDiscord <greenxenith> not*
03:27 MTDiscord <wsor4035> ah
03:27 MTDiscord <greenxenith> (Just because group texts exist doesnt make them good)
03:27 [MatrxMT] <Blockhead256> missed the "see the pr".. was only there briefly. Chats! It's not a face-to-face conversation, but we so often treat it that way.. like it has no scrollback almost
03:29 MTDiscord <greenxenith> looks like nheko has 2 variants for chat, to be fair
03:29 MTDiscord <wsor4035> its a pinned tab now
03:29 MTDiscord <wsor4035> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1440182048663932948/image.png?ex=691d398d&amp;is=691be80d&amp;hm=54a72d14e9a965d80d71e61426681ca03ea810aaa4103c23ee671cc060f6dc2a&amp;
03:29 MTDiscord <greenxenith> But nheko still looks way too dense for no reason
03:29 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Id pick fluffychat over nheko if I had to. Fluffychat's site is also weirdly polished
03:30 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Wait does cinny not have a desktop client?
03:30 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Oh good it does
03:31 MTDiscord <greenxenith> just pooly advertized
03:31 MTDiscord <wsor4035> pwa or element wrapper iirc?
03:31 MTDiscord <wsor4035> not element
03:31 MTDiscord <wsor4035> sorry, tauri
03:31 MTDiscord <greenxenith> electron-- wait really, tauri?
03:31 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Thats dope if so
03:31 MTDiscord <wsor4035> https://github.com/cinnyapp/cinny-desktop
03:34 MTDiscord <wsor4035> ok, i verified my cinny instances but i cant decrypt old messages, tf?
04:57 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Let it be known: I tried Cinny with wsor. It is currently lacking tray minimization and ctrl+v pasting, and encrypted history isnt working, so its a no-op for me right now personally
04:57 MTDiscord <greenxenith> But no one can say I didnt try it when he did
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05:03 MTDiscord <wsor4035> (encrypted history is more a matrix being fucked thing than cinny issue)
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11:02 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> luanti-org/luanti: Implement Vsync for SDL device (#16683) 37c3c89 https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/commit/37c3c89b0322c516adbd654b937de576d690bb38 (2025-11-18T11:00:46Z)
11:02 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> luanti-org/luanti: Reapply "Prefer GL3 driver over legacy GL driver" bf01cdf https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/commit/bf01cdf823ea882deeb4a7b0577bfecbb6c20bbd (2025-11-18T11:01:08Z)
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17:52 sfan5 very interesting how the minetest-c55 0.3 light curve wasn't dark at all
17:52 sfan5 compared to current
17:54 ireallyhateirc top 10 luanti facts the government doesn't want you to know
18:02 mrcheese lol
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18:10 sfan5 https://0x0.st/Kft9.png negative torch or something idk
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19:02 MTDiscord <et086> interesting
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20:15 mrcheese lol "negative lighting..."
20:15 MTDiscord <dragonwrangler1> I actually kind of like the idea
20:18 mrcheese yea lol
20:18 MTDiscord <et086> what if being in light killed you and you needed to stay in the darkness xD
20:19 mrcheese XDDD
20:19 mrcheese would make a great stealth game
20:19 mrcheese (totally not related to the game jam... :P)
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