| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:31 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 00:52 |
|
sparky4 joined #luanti |
| 01:02 |
|
LichenSeed12 joined #luanti |
| 01:04 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 01:22 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> re: compliance in sending free software and media to clients and them not having the license |
| 01:22 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> I've already conceived of a mod that parses your mod directories and presents licence info in a formspec. But it's just kind of.. boring busywork it feels like? |
| 01:22 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> most servers, the admin should be happy to share it. "Should" is doing some heavy lifting |
| 01:29 |
ireallyhateirc |
sending license files, especially of SSCSM code and media, should be automated |
| 01:31 |
ireallyhateirc |
either SPDX headers or a custom license if any |
| 01:34 |
ireallyhateirc |
with a way to blacklist certain licenses and unlicensed files (or providing an API to help with that) |
| 01:36 |
|
user333_ joined #luanti |
| 01:38 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 01:40 |
sfan5 |
great, we should spend more development time satisfying fringe license preferences instead of making luanti a better engine |
| 01:41 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> its also an engine, not a shove your views done others throat pipeline |
| 01:42 |
|
user333_ joined #luanti |
| 01:44 |
ireallyhateirc |
sending licensing info is more about the engine not breaking the law |
| 01:45 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> ♫ breaking the law, breaking the law ♫ |
| 01:45 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> sure, but that doesnt mean it needs to be sent in some standard way |
| 01:46 |
user333_ |
Blockhead: we're already giving away minecraft for free :p |
| 01:46 |
ireallyhateirc |
an opt-in blacklist would be helpful, but if no such thing is provided then I won't play on any servers |
| 01:46 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> did somebody say minecraftforfree.com |
| 01:46 |
ireallyhateirc |
web browsers are properly sandboxed and checked for security holes |
| 01:47 |
user333_ |
s/minecraftforfree.com/luanti.org |
| 01:47 |
ireallyhateirc |
with all due respect, I doubt you will create a perfect and secure system on your first attempt |
| 01:47 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> that's only what everybody's been saying for like 10 years |
| 01:48 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> browsers arent perfect either |
| 01:48 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> cves happen and get fixed |
| 01:48 |
ireallyhateirc |
and as soon as you allow sending proprietary code, which will also encourage uglifying, it will get ugly |
| 01:48 |
* user333_ |
looks at his script which receives IRC messages and runs them as commands... as root |
| 01:48 |
ireallyhateirc |
with some safety measures such as 1. allowing blacklist 2. allowing inspecting the code before running it |
| 01:49 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> rm -rf --no-preserve-root |
| 01:49 |
user333_ |
it's not on here :p |
| 01:49 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> what's this concern about proprietary code? the servers can already run proprietary code, and a load of admins don't know what their mods are actually doing |
| 01:49 |
ireallyhateirc |
it would at least prevent some people from running shady code |
| 01:49 |
user333_ |
but i do have it running in a VM on a channel here |
| 01:49 |
ireallyhateirc |
server-side proprietary code is server-side |
| 01:50 |
ireallyhateirc |
SSCSMs are arbitrary code sent by the server to the client |
| 01:50 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> so are you running intel/amd processors from like a decade and half ago? |
| 01:51 |
sfan5 |
ireallyhateirc: as far as I am aware the average website is not breaking the law by not including license information |
| 01:51 |
sfan5 |
there was a browser extension to enforce some javascript licensing IIRC but that sounds incredibly impractical to me |
| 01:52 |
ireallyhateirc |
sfan5, All rights reserved proprietary code is not breaking the law, because the copyright owner sends you their property. With GPL and CC licenses it's completely different |
| 01:52 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> unless it's not your ARR mod |
| 01:53 |
ireallyhateirc |
All rights reserved code has no requirements. With GPL code you're *forced* to include a copy of the license |
| 01:54 |
ireallyhateirc |
I could send a mail to the FSF to clarify if that helps |
| 01:55 |
ireallyhateirc |
even lax FOSS licenses force you to include licensing info |
| 01:56 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> lots of articles/discussion on mit and minification for js libraries |
| 01:56 |
ireallyhateirc |
so you either need to deliver that info in the header in the file OR send a copy of the license along the file |
| 01:56 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> nah |
| 01:59 |
ireallyhateirc |
the alternative for people is to provide a /license command or displaying that info on join |
| 02:00 |
ireallyhateirc |
also I'm not a big fan of the "web browsers ignore the issue so we should do the same" argument |
| 02:01 |
sfan5 |
right, it looks like minified libs apparently come with a license comment |
| 02:01 |
|
Cork joined #luanti |
| 02:01 |
sfan5 |
intentionally |
| 02:01 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> well you're going to have a hard time swimming upstream here, it's the norm in browsers, video games like gmod, roblox and more |
| 02:01 |
ireallyhateirc |
the most basic low-effort thing you may do is to simply send the LICENSE file along all .lua files with a SSCSM |
| 02:02 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> even if the engine doesn't deliver the full capability of blocking, CP-CSM should be able to check the SS-CSMs and decide not to run them. |
| 02:02 |
sfan5 |
it's questionable if that matters because the user has no way to inspect that file |
| 02:02 |
ireallyhateirc |
then we (either upstream or someone else) could implement a client feature to reject unlicensed CSMs |
| 02:05 |
sfan5 |
that's exactly what I was going for with my "wasting work for something 3 people in total want" point |
| 02:06 |
sfan5 |
but yes we should make sure that mod devs do not easily/accidentally violate their own license because the user has no way to see it |
| 02:07 |
ireallyhateirc |
this would be helpful |
| 02:08 |
ireallyhateirc |
as for the blacklist feature, I'm sure we'll be able to get 3+ interested people to make a forked client, or merge that upstream if any core dev backs that |
| 02:08 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> luanti-libre |
| 02:09 |
ireallyhateirc |
the final luanti lol |
| 02:10 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> final luanti fork after 6.0 comes out, then change the name again (pls no) |
| 02:10 |
user333_ |
luantest? |
| 02:13 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 02:19 |
ireallyhateirc |
btw from the GPL: |
| 02:19 |
ireallyhateirc |
You may convey verbatim copies of the Program's source code as you |
| 02:19 |
ireallyhateirc |
receive it, in any medium, provided that you conspicuously and |
| 02:19 |
ireallyhateirc |
appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate copyright notice; |
| 02:19 |
ireallyhateirc |
keep intact all notices stating that this License and any |
| 02:19 |
ireallyhateirc |
non-permissive terms added in accord with section 7 apply to the code; |
| 02:19 |
ireallyhateirc |
keep intact all notices of the absence of any warranty; and give all |
| 02:19 |
ireallyhateirc |
recipients a copy of this License along with the Program. |
| 02:20 |
wsor4035 |
i really did hope you would get kicked |
| 02:21 |
ireallyhateirc |
you mean me being too talkative or not using the pastebin? |
| 02:21 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> anyways, my view is send whatever files are in a dir or whatever for sscsm and then its the authors problem |
| 02:23 |
wsor4035 |
the latter |
| 02:25 |
ireallyhateirc |
will do so next time. Anyway, an alternative to the blacklist and what not would be simply providing a way to display licensing terms upon connecting and "accept/reject" |
| 02:25 |
ireallyhateirc |
I believe this should be fair for both proprietary and foss licenses? |
| 02:26 |
ireallyhateirc |
after all many games and services do that |
| 02:31 |
|
YuGiOhJCJ joined #luanti |
| 02:34 |
ireallyhateirc |
Also this article explains how licensing info should be presented in order for it to be legally binding: https://legalclarity.org/when-does-a-software-license-agreement-become-binding/ |
| 02:36 |
ireallyhateirc |
"For browsewrap agreements, acceptance hinges on whether the user had reasonable notice of the terms." |
| 02:39 |
bgstack15 |
ContentDB seems overly obsessed with license stuff. You'd think Luanti engine itself would also be bending over backwards to make it hard for people to do stuff, such as by forcing license stuff passed around from server to client. |
| 02:39 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> ContentDB is obsessed with trying not to get sued or attract DMCA takedowns |
| 02:39 |
bgstack15 |
Kind of weird the priorities are different |
| 02:42 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> cdb isnt obsessed with licensing. trust me, could be much more anal |
| 02:43 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> most just have your ducks in a row and move on |
| 02:44 |
bgstack15 |
wsor4035: you're only in the 10 ten most anal folks I've interacted with on the Internet. Unless you also go by the initials NTP from a different community, in which case some thoughts and prayers.... |
| 02:45 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> most of the interaction with CDB approvers ends up being license-related because that's one of the big ticket items on a package and one of the ones most people stumble over at least a bit.. |
| 02:45 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> not because we |
| 02:45 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> 're necessarily like that as a person |
| 02:46 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 02:47 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> if we wanted to be anal about code quality almost nothing would get approved |
| 02:48 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> to be fair, code quality is just one thing |
| 02:48 |
user333_ |
"ContentDB: The place to download MTG." |
| 02:48 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> https://content.luanti.org/packages/?type=game disagrees |
| 02:48 |
user333_ |
indeed |
| 02:49 |
bgstack15 |
I showed up only after MTG was separated from the engine. I think as a newbie, I'm glad MTG is not included. That's not what I want to use Luanti for, and I'm glad it's not cluttering up my games/ |
| 02:49 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> it's all over once you have 3 pages of games |
| 02:49 |
* user333_ |
found luanti in mid 2024 |
| 02:50 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> and I end up keeping a separate games/ dir managed manually if I'm gonna play a bunch of game jam entries |
| 02:50 |
bgstack15 |
Hm, here's an idea for Luanti funding: paid code reviews for mods. |
| 02:50 |
bgstack15 |
for improving code quality. And I realize luacheck hardly covers it, I feel like I've improved after learning about it. |
| 02:50 |
user333_ |
people would just flood it with AI slop reviews |
| 02:50 |
bgstack15 |
*but |
| 02:51 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> paypal me five bucks and I'll review your mod (nobody has my details yet lol) |
| 02:51 |
user333_ |
like, iirc, what happened to curl bug bounties |
| 02:51 |
bgstack15 |
Only $5?! |
| 02:51 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> to be fair, everyone has your paypal details given the leak |
| 02:51 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> a lot of mods aren't very big |
| 02:51 |
bgstack15 |
That doesn't even cover your time to download the mod much less actually read and review it. |
| 02:51 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> sends blockhead dreambuilder and $5, evil laughter |
| 02:51 |
bgstack15 |
Well, UNIX philosophy and all that: I think small mods are great. Perhaps I'm not aware of the number of small mods out there. |
| 02:52 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> consultancy fees lol |
| 02:52 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> so overpriced |
| 02:52 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> well the australian dollar isn't worth as much as the american |
| 02:53 |
user333_ |
wsor4035: whoever got paid to review air game had an easy day :p |
| 02:53 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> $5/1ksloc, AI slop would be costlier because of all the redundant functions it puts out lol |
| 02:54 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> wsor4035: I can review dreambuilder if you want, but I suspect you don't care much about actioning any of it |
| 02:54 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> pretty much |
| 02:55 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> i just keep it alive |
| 02:55 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> i care about dreambuilder by proxy of caring about some of the mods in it |
| 02:57 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> idea to raise money for luanti. allow stupid packages or configurations on cdb, but charge mega bucks for it |
| 02:57 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> all rights reserved contentDB, but you have to pay $5/mo to have the mod up |
| 02:58 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> 1 million dollars a second |
| 02:58 |
bgstack15 |
Lol, go full FANG, and accept $15 a day to promote a mod. There's that method for highlighting mods/packages. |
| 02:59 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> buy your way onto the homepage carousel |
| 02:59 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> i mean, technically you can already do that |
| 02:59 |
bgstack15 |
Haha, how about $$ per antifeature flag already present in CDB, like $20 for the "AI-assisted" flag, and $10 for mods only >=5.15.0, etc. |
| 02:59 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> it just requires having a good package and bribing an editor |
| 03:00 |
bgstack15 |
Yeah, but formalize it, so it's easier to get that sweet sweet moolah |
| 03:02 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> if we formalise, the money has to go to the nonprofit instead of the editors' pockets |
| 03:02 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> i mean, im just trolling |
| 03:03 |
bgstack15 |
Blockhead256: who says? |
| 03:04 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> ruben would have something to say about that.. it's his platform, where's his bribe money? but he can't say any of that, he's asleep :P |
| 03:06 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 03:48 |
|
Sokomine joined #luanti |
| 03:54 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 04:17 |
|
YuGiOhJCJ joined #luanti |
| 04:19 |
|
AliasStillTaken joined #luanti |
| 04:23 |
|
lemonzest joined #luanti |
| 04:29 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 04:42 |
|
stg-developer joined #luanti |
| 04:53 |
|
amfl joined #luanti |
| 05:04 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 05:04 |
|
MTDiscord joined #luanti |
| 05:36 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 05:56 |
|
YuGiOhJCJ joined #luanti |
| 05:56 |
|
stg-developer joined #luanti |
| 05:57 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 06:00 |
|
burgeresque joined #luanti |
| 06:16 |
|
apteryx_ joined #luanti |
| 06:19 |
|
loggingbot_ joined #luanti |
| 06:19 |
|
Topic for #luanti is now The official Luanti (formerly Minetest) channel | General, player and modding discussion is on-topic. If in doubt, post here | Responses may take a while, be patient | Rules: https://dev.luanti.org/irc/#rules | Development: #luanti-dev | Server list: https://luanti.org/servers | IRC logs: https://irc.luanti.org/ |
| 06:24 |
|
YuGiOhJCJ joined #luanti |
| 06:24 |
|
fling joined #luanti |
| 06:29 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 06:38 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 06:58 |
|
Spookan joined #luanti |
| 07:24 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 07:55 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 08:18 |
|
FeXoR joined #luanti |
| 08:29 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 08:35 |
|
oneeyedalien joined #luanti |
| 08:49 |
|
Spookan joined #luanti |
| 08:49 |
|
sys4_ joined #luanti |
| 08:57 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 09:06 |
|
nekobit joined #luanti |
| 09:22 |
|
Warr1024 joined #luanti |
| 09:29 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 09:35 |
|
cow321 joined #luanti |
| 09:47 |
|
Warr1024 joined #luanti |
| 09:57 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 10:03 |
|
___nick___ joined #luanti |
| 10:13 |
|
jaca122 joined #luanti |
| 10:27 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 10:58 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 11:32 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 11:59 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 12:17 |
|
mrkubax10 joined #luanti |
| 12:23 |
|
rubenwardy joined #luanti |
| 12:26 |
|
illwieckz joined #luanti |
| 12:32 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 12:36 |
|
ireallyhateirc joined #luanti |
| 12:39 |
|
fling_ joined #luanti |
| 12:54 |
|
___nick___ joined #luanti |
| 13:00 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 13:03 |
|
fling joined #luanti |
| 13:15 |
|
PoochInquisitor joined #luanti |
| 13:18 |
ireallyhateirc |
After the discussion yesterday I thought I'd do an issue for it to better summarize my arguments and to encourage a more civilized and technical discussion https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/issues/16972 |
| 13:33 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> I thought of it as more like the player refusing certain licenses |
| 13:34 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 13:35 |
ireallyhateirc |
that would be good for me too, but if we can't do that then we should at least be able to display the license agreement to the users in a transparent manner |
| 13:35 |
|
TheWild joined #luanti |
| 13:51 |
ireallyhateirc |
my initial proposal worked under the assumption that most people here wouldn't be willing to run random proprietary blackbox code in a freshly baked sandbox, but if there's demand for that then I can bend a little |
| 13:53 |
|
mrkubax10 joined #luanti |
| 13:53 |
|
Spookan joined #luanti |
| 14:01 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 14:04 |
|
bramaudi joined #luanti |
| 14:06 |
|
bramaudi joined #luanti |
| 14:25 |
|
alek13 joined #luanti |
| 14:27 |
|
___nick___ joined #luanti |
| 14:35 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 14:42 |
|
imi joined #luanti |
| 15:03 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 15:07 |
|
Talkless joined #luanti |
| 15:14 |
|
___nick___ joined #luanti |
| 15:16 |
|
___nick___ joined #luanti |
| 15:22 |
|
simon816 joined #luanti |
| 15:36 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 15:44 |
|
TheWild joined #luanti |
| 16:04 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 16:25 |
|
Desour joined #luanti |
| 16:32 |
Desour |
today on I hate github: it appeared to me that a top level comment in the discussions feature was missing. I know there had been the comment, but I couldnt find it. using the browser's search function with a word that I knew was in there didnt work either. and I've seen no "show hidden comments button". I've changed the sorting to newest then oldest, then it was suddenly there. after chaning to the default sorting it's still there now. what is this crap? you |
| 16:32 |
Desour |
can't just drop messages, github! |
| 16:39 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 16:51 |
|
wallabra joined #luanti |
| 17:04 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 17:39 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 17:45 |
|
chilledfrogs joined #luanti |
| 17:50 |
|
HumanG331 joined #luanti |
| 17:56 |
|
tzenfore joined #luanti |
| 18:05 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 18:10 |
|
jaca122 joined #luanti |
| 18:30 |
|
mrkubax10 joined #luanti |
| 18:31 |
|
qqq joined #luanti |
| 18:38 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 19:18 |
|
cmc2 joined #luanti |
| 19:23 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 19:47 |
|
crazylad joined #luanti |
| 19:51 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 20:23 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 20:36 |
|
mrkubax10 joined #luanti |
| 20:52 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 21:24 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 21:42 |
Sheriff_U3 |
Anyone got a recommended mob API? Looking at ContentDB and the forums there's a bunch. Looking for something that's licensed under CC0 or MIT. I don't care if it comes with mobs built-in. (I just need an API.) |
| 21:44 |
|
alek13_ joined #luanti |
| 21:48 |
|
heavygale joined #luanti |
| 21:56 |
|
alek13 joined #luanti |
| 21:58 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 22:02 |
|
alek13 joined #luanti |
| 22:12 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> mobkit |
| 22:15 |
Sheriff_U3 |
hmm |
| 22:21 |
|
panwolfram joined #luanti |
| 22:48 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 22:56 |
|
TheWild joined #luanti |
| 23:23 |
|
SFENCE joined #luanti |
| 23:32 |
|
panwolfram joined #luanti |
