| Time |
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| 04:00 |
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| 04:44 |
technomancy |
I've added `assert(false)` to an existing test and run `bin/luanti --run-unittests` but everything still passes. what am I doing wrong? |
| 04:51 |
technomancy |
https://p.hagelb.org/luanti-test-pass.html <- there are a lot of errors in the output, but the test I edited to fail ("test_require" in misc.lua) is never mentioned either as a success or failure. |
| 04:52 |
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| 08:09 |
sfan5 |
the tests don't use assert |
| 08:16 |
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| 11:15 |
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| 11:18 |
MinetestBot |
[git] script mt -> luanti-org/luanti: Re-generate minetest.conf.example 7045deb https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/commit/7045deb6a884d8d1ad75a019ca95810b00ad8927 (2026-08-19T09:15:50Z) |
| 11:19 |
sfan5 |
technomancy: actually, the solution is that --run-unittests does not run the test you edit at all |
| 11:19 |
sfan5 |
the ones in games/devtest/mods/unittest/ are separate |
| 12:40 |
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| 14:50 |
technomancy |
https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/pull/16036 huh, so how do you run the require tests in this branch? |
| 14:54 |
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| 15:04 |
Krock |
technomancy: to run the tests in games/devtest/mods/ you need to start up Luanti (may as well be with software rendering) in a world to execute the chatcommand |
| 15:12 |
technomancy |
cool. what's the command? |
| 15:12 |
technomancy |
is there a way to start it headless? |
| 15:14 |
Sheriff_U3 |
technomancy: my guess would be /test_require would be the command |
| 15:18 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> technomancy: i think it was /unittests but i usually have set devtest_unittests_autostart = true so i can just run something like ninja -C build/debug -j6 && ./bin/luanti --worldname unittests --go 2>&1 | grep FAIL -C 10 |
| 15:19 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> you can run server-only unittests headless by adding --server to the luanti invocation, but then you need to insert some code to request a shutdown once it's done, otherwise it'll just keep going. |
| 15:19 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> or you just Ctrl+C it yourself after you see that the tests have run. |
| 15:20 |
technomancy |
cool, thanks |
| 15:21 |
technomancy |
why are the require tests in the devtest mod and not the main set? |
| 15:23 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> because they're inherently tied to a mod. there would be ways to move them to the C++ unit tests but it wouldn't be too pretty. |
| 15:28 |
technomancy |
oh, so the "main suite" doesn't support tests written in lua? |
| 15:29 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> yes, at least not directly |
| 15:50 |
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| 16:48 |
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| 17:00 |
sfan5 |
cheapie: i'm curious if you agree with the criticism in this article https://dmitry.gr/?r=06.%20Thoughts&proj=12.%20RV |
| 17:08 |
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| 17:27 |
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| 17:39 |
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| 17:52 |
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| 17:54 |
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| 18:02 |
viwooh |
Are there any forks of the engine without LLM assistance? |
| 18:02 |
crazylad |
why |
| 18:02 |
viwooh |
WDYM why? |
| 18:02 |
Krock |
why |
| 18:03 |
technomancy |
doesn't the policy already ban using LLM for any significant patches? |
| 18:04 |
viwooh |
It still allows assistance beyond writing code |
| 18:04 |
Sheriff_U3 |
viwooh: It's difficult to say because not all AI usage is obvious. Luanti though doesn't have any AI slop in the engine. |
| 18:05 |
viwooh |
https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopware#game-engines |
| 18:05 |
Sheriff_U3 |
AI generated assets aren't allowed. |
| 18:05 |
Sheriff_U3 |
oh your from those people... |
| 18:05 |
viwooh |
What people? |
| 18:05 |
technomancy |
viwooh: did you read the policy? |
| 18:05 |
crazylad |
the whiny AI people |
| 18:06 |
technomancy |
open slopware has a ton of false positives |
| 18:06 |
crazylad |
they made an entire repo on codeberg to do nothing but whine lol |
| 18:06 |
technomancy |
they put halloy on the list for one single commit even after they banned LLM contributions |
| 18:06 |
Sheriff_U3 |
the people who ban anyone that disagrees with them, and who flood other projects issues |
| 18:07 |
viwooh |
technomancy: I read the policy, and stuff like debugging with an LLM is allowed there |
| 18:07 |
Sheriff_U3 |
A bunch of random people with no connection to Luanti flooded an issue on Luanti a few months back to voice their opinion on AI usage in the engine. |
| 18:08 |
technomancy |
viwooh: how would you create a fork that removes the fact that someone used an LLM to debug? |
| 18:08 |
technomancy |
that doesn't make any sense |
| 18:08 |
viwooh |
Maybe remove the commits or something? |
| 18:08 |
Sheriff_U3 |
When I went over to their pr on Luanti to help clear some things up I received a ban for unknown reasons. |
| 18:08 |
crazylad |
lmao |
| 18:08 |
technomancy |
viwooh: that doesn't make sense; the commit doesn't contain the result of the LLM usage |
| 18:08 |
Sheriff_U3 |
lol |
| 18:09 |
technomancy |
a contribution policy literally cannot cover things that aren't contributions |
| 18:09 |
Krock |
viwooh: would you frame the steam engine as a "device of Satan"? AI has become a tool, like hammers. If you use it to slam on your own fingers or break glass, that's your problem. The review process in Luanti is very clear where it states that you have to know what you're doing. |
| 18:10 |
viwooh |
I assume it still significantly contributes to climate change whenever used |
| 18:10 |
technomancy |
sure? |
| 18:10 |
crazylad |
what |
| 18:10 |
technomancy |
lots of people do bad shit |
| 18:10 |
technomancy |
you can't solve that with a contribution policy |
| 18:11 |
technomancy |
I would love it if racists could be prevented from using luanti, but no amount of policy can change the fact that racists can use luanti. |
| 18:11 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> viwooh: rest assured that people will "contribute to climate change" whether you use their software or not. |
| 18:12 |
viwooh |
I don't think people on their own have as much environmental impact as LLMs |
| 18:13 |
Sheriff_U3 |
If you want to prevent climate change then GET OFF YOUR DEVICE do you realize how much the manufacturing process of your device contributed to "climate change". |
| 18:13 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Don't buy a new car |
| 18:13 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> In fact don't even buy a bicycle, or shoes |
| 18:14 |
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| 18:14 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Even the cup you used to drink out of this morning probably needed to be shipped to your local area |
| 18:14 |
technomancy |
I'm all for firebombing LLM data centers and shit but luanti's ban is a lot better than most projects. |
| 18:14 |
technomancy |
openslopware needs to chill, and I say that as someone who will never touch one of those fucking slop machines in my life |
| 18:15 |
Sheriff_U3 |
🫢 |
| 18:15 |
viwooh |
I still believe LLMs negatively impacted the climate even more than any of the day-to-day things listed |
| 18:15 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> You've never researched the 3m manufacturing plants have you |
| 18:16 |
viwooh |
No |
| 18:16 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> If LLMs are giving you this panic, never look into that |
| 18:16 |
crazylad |
lol |
| 18:16 |
viwooh |
I'm confused now |
| 18:16 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I am a cognitohazard |
| 18:18 |
viwooh |
Who to trust if I want technology to prosper without killing the planet? |
| 18:18 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Probably just freebsd at this point |
| 18:19 |
Sheriff_U3 |
viwooh: an alternative might be multicaft or some other pre 5.14 fork of Luanti, but they may have AI assisted contributions themselves. |
| 18:19 |
technomancy |
love2d has a good policy |
| 18:21 |
technomancy |
viwooh: https://noai.starlightnet.work/list.html this is a much better list than openslopware |
| 18:22 |
MinetestBot |
[git] sfan5 -> luanti-org/luanti: Add GL error check to array texture upload code 71569b8 https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/commit/71569b83124f583db1a757e08ce858c577ff78a7 (2026-08-19T18:20:10Z) |
| 18:23 |
viwooh |
technomancy: Luanti still isn't listed there among the good projects... or anywhere at all |
| 18:24 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Well get it up there anywhere on that list |
| 18:24 |
viwooh |
Uh... how? There aren't any contacts of some sort |
| 18:25 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> nothing in the page source code? |
| 18:25 |
viwooh |
IG not |
| 18:25 |
crazylad |
https://giphy.com/gifs/oh-no-anyway-7k2LoEykY5i1hfeWQB |
| 18:26 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i don't think luanti belongs on that list? we aren't really "anti-ai", we just restrict its usage to what we deem best for the project. |
| 18:26 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I want to see luanti on any list so we get more people to make cool mods |
| 18:27 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> FBI most wanted list luanti #38 "oh oh oh we made it! pr!!!" |
| 18:27 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/issues/38 -- Add compilation dependencies for Fedora in README by vivien |
| 18:27 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> oops |
| 18:27 |
technomancy |
the policy says it can't be used for "significant contributions" |
| 18:27 |
user333_ |
<+MTDiscord> <jordan4ibanez> I want to see luanti on any list so we get more people to make cool mods | mods made with AI of cou- |
| 18:27 |
Sheriff_U3 |
viwooh: You should also note that there various security bugs that have been fixed in recent releases (5.15.1) |
| 18:27 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Just say every commit this project has ever had has been vibe coded so it ends up at the top |
| 18:29 |
crazylad |
lol |
| 18:29 |
viwooh |
So is Luanti's policy already good enough? |
| 18:29 |
technomancy |
no one would believe it because luanti is actually good; you'd have to make it crash all the time to make it realistic |
| 18:30 |
technomancy |
viwooh: I mean, if you think it's not, then you should explain why. you haven't really done a good job at that so far? |
| 18:30 |
Sheriff_U3 |
viwooh: Yes, Luanti has only had one AI slop pr so far. |
| 18:30 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> No one would believe luanti is good it's got no video on the home page |
| 18:32 |
bgstack15 |
luatic, that's the problem. The openslop people appear to add a project to the list, if you're not 105% anti-AI. |
| 18:32 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I say we engineer an ai slop psyop to get the anti-ai people to believe that luanti has been ai vibe coded since 2010 using cursor brought back through a time machine |
| 18:32 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Then when they look for the slop... oh who am I kidding they're not gonna look at the code |
| 18:33 |
crazylad |
XD |
| 18:33 |
bgstack15 |
I guess I don't have a lot of exposure to AI (hah, less sunblock needed I guess), so the slopware problem hasn't affected me. What irks me is the copyright expungement engine stuff. [GPL in] -> [something not GPL-compatible is what is pooped out] |
| 18:33 |
technomancy |
bgstack15: I think they were talking about the starlight list, not openslopware |
| 18:33 |
technomancy |
openslopware sucks |
| 18:33 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> open-slopware is basically like linux-libre imo |
| 18:34 |
viwooh |
technomancy: open-slopware links merged issues where LLM assistance was disclosed, so if the policy's purpose is to disallow any use of LLMs, then it doesn't do a good job |
| 18:34 |
technomancy |
bgstack15: jealous. I have to deal with so much slop at work it's making me lose my mind. |
| 18:34 |
technomancy |
one guy's literally asked me to review a patch he said was "vibecoded nonsense"; I'm like ... why do you want review if you already know it sucks? wtf am I supposed to do with this |
| 18:35 |
Sheriff_U3 |
open-slopware is in my opinion just bunch of people trying to witch hunt FOSS projects into anti-ai. |
| 18:35 |
bgstack15 |
You should have thrown it into an AI slop receiver, and told it to say, "no" in a 30-page email reply to the guy. |
| 18:35 |
rubenwardy |
I think we should require contributors to not eat meat |
| 18:35 |
bgstack15 |
Sheriff_U3: yes, I agree with that assessment. |
| 18:35 |
bgstack15 |
rubenwardy: I promise not to eat meat while coding for Luanti. |
| 18:36 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I also agree to save the meat for after programming so I shall probably end up starving |
| 18:37 |
Sheriff_U3 |
I don't think I could give up eating beef, chicken, fish... |
| 18:38 |
viwooh |
So, are there any forks with a better policy (that's also acted on, ofc) or not? |
| 18:38 |
rubenwardy |
I should submit a PR to open slop to replace one of the links with  https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/blob/master/doc/developing/ai_policy.md |
| 18:38 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I am awaiting to hear of your ban from openslop |
| 18:39 |
crazylad |
yea lol |
| 18:39 |
technomancy |
viwooh: you haven't answered the question of what a better policy would even be |
| 18:39 |
technomancy |
viwooh: if you have an objection to the current policy you should say what it is |
| 18:39 |
rubenwardy |
Saw one project on openslop where they linked to some random person's comment on an issue tracker as evidence of the maintainers being bad. The person had like 2 commits in the repo, wasn't officially associated lol |
| 18:40 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> viwooh: i'm not really aware of any "serious" luanti forks except for "commercial" ones like multicraft or extensively AI-assisted ones like goanna. if you want to use luanti, there's only really one place where it's developed, and that's here, so compromises have to be made. |
| 18:40 |
viwooh |
technomancy: That doesn't allow any LLM-assisted contributions |
| 18:40 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Are there any microsoft open source projects on openslop? |
| 18:40 |
technomancy |
viwooh: so your problem specifically is that insignificant contributions are allowed? |
| 18:40 |
technomancy |
jordan4ibanez: microsoft loooooooves slop |
| 18:41 |
viwooh |
technomancy: IG so |
| 18:41 |
user333_ |
microslop |
| 18:41 |
technomancy |
viwooh: I don't think anyone would bother creating a fork over contributinos that are by definition insignificant |
| 18:41 |
technomancy |
what's the point? |
| 18:41 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Yes exactly. And if that is missing a specific company's projects then you might know who's running that to create some controversy etc |
| 18:41 |
technomancy |
save your effort for things that are significant |
| 18:42 |
bgstack15 |
Don't you mean "Microsoft <3 slop" |
| 18:42 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> viwooh: if you think so strongly about this you may consider making a slop free fork, they have instructions here: https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopware/src/branch/main/HOW_TO_SLOP_FREE_FORK.md |
| 18:42 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> making a slop free fork of luanti also includes reverting some security fixes found with AI iirc. I'm sure that's fine |
| 18:42 |
viwooh |
Oh, I didn't know they had that |
| 18:42 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Run free with your unsloppiness |
| 18:43 |
Sheriff_U3 |
viwooh: This is the only good Luanti project, are there forks yes... But they all are worse then Luanti, they are either out of date, not FOSS, or have plenty of AI contributions. |
| 18:44 |
technomancy |
viwooh: there *are* projects that need to be forked to remove slop! if you're interested in this, you should find one of those and help out there. |
| 18:44 |
technomancy |
this is not one of them |
| 18:44 |
viwooh |
Why? |
| 18:45 |
technomancy |
why which part? |
| 18:45 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> "No AI or LLM usage is allowed in this repo for contributions in Issues, Pull Requests, or Discussions. This includes bug finding, optimizations, security passes." okay this is just absolutely bonkers |
| 18:45 |
viwooh |
The latter message |
| 18:46 |
technomancy |
viwooh: I think it's pretty self-evident why it's more important to fix a project that has committed significant slop vs a project where it's only insignificant; I'm not sure how I can explain that more clearly than I already have |
| 18:46 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> You're also going to have to use a much older compiler or language version due to the base language having ai code |
| 18:46 |
technomancy |
well, lua is fortunately safe |
| 18:46 |
technomancy |
but |
| 18:47 |
technomancy |
we already are using a much older version of lua anyway >_< |
| 18:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> a wise man once told me "if your code runs like shit, you're not using luajit" |
| 18:47 |
technomancy |
luatic: you can tell it's wise because it rhymes |
| 18:48 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> indeed |
| 18:48 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> seriously though, i think we better follow what luajit is cooking than what the PUC team is up to |
| 18:49 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Puc started it but mike finished the job |
| 18:49 |
technomancy |
I do miss working metatable iterators when using luajit; that sucks |
| 18:49 |
technomancy |
also the closeable variables are really nice |
| 18:49 |
Sheriff_U3 |
Is luanti using lua5.1 or luajit? |
| 18:49 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> imo lua's design has been going somewhat downhill with 5.3+ |
| 18:49 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> closeables are nice but defer would be the better design |
| 18:49 |
crazylad |
Sheriff_U3: iirc, yes - luajit is based on lua5.1 |
| 18:49 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> integers are done poorly, they should not be implicit WITH WRAPAROUND ARITHMETIC |
| 18:50 |
technomancy |
I'm so used to targeting the intersection of 5.1/5.2/5.3/5.4 that I honestly just forget the new stuff since I can't use it anyway |
| 18:50 |
technomancy |
luckily it is mostly easy to ignore |
| 18:50 |
Krock |
viwooh: > I assume it still significantly contributes to climate change whenever used |
| 18:51 |
Krock |
how exactly is reverting AI contributions going to magically solve that? |
| 18:51 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> but in the end it doesn't really matter how we feel about the language because we MUST support luajit, performance of demanding games is simply unacceptable on PUC |
| 18:51 |
Krock |
I do not understand how you've reached to this topic after asking about contributions in Luanti |
| 18:51 |
technomancy |
PUC 5.1; everyone can agree that suuuuuucks |
| 18:51 |
technomancy |
nerfed coroutines =( |
| 18:51 |
Sheriff_U3 |
Krock: wild goose chases... |
| 18:52 |
viwooh |
Krock: Well, maybe not revert old ones, but prevent new ones |
| 18:52 |
technomancy |
did anything happen re generational GC on luajit? |
| 18:52 |
technomancy |
I remember reading about a very experimental branch years ago |
| 18:53 |
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| 18:53 |
Krock |
viwooh: if the current way proves to be more efficient, would it be a wise decision to reject everything? Don't get me wrong - I do not use AI for development but have found it insightful on new ideas. And that's what the policy exactly defines. It's clear what should be done and what not. |
| 18:54 |
technomancy |
that's honestly one of the nicer things about the new PUC is the GC is a lot better |
| 18:54 |
Krock |
s/new ideas/ideas other people already had/ |
| 18:55 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I'm sure the GC is quite nice while we wait for the loop to finish as luajit is now 100 server ticks ahead |
| 18:55 |
viwooh |
technomancy: I was just told the Starlight Network list includes polyproto, which is not free of LLM... something |
| 18:55 |
technomancy |
jordan4ibanez: luajit does pretty poorly on FP type algorithms which produce a lot of garbage |
| 18:56 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> technomancy: well then don't do that ;) |
| 18:56 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> jokes aside yes the situation is suboptimal |
| 18:56 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I have something that produces excessive amounts of garbage and the jit seems to be keeping up just fine |
| 18:57 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> closure creation still was NYI last i checked for example |
| 18:57 |
viwooh |
Krock: Everything as in what? If everything is made or assisted with "AI," then yes, it's preferable to reject everything |
| 18:57 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> which is a bit sad because it heavily skews writing efficient code towards avoiding abstractions and a more metatable-heavy style |
| 18:58 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> viwooh: because? |
| 18:58 |
technomancy |
yeah, there's always tension there between maintainability/readability vs performance |
| 18:58 |
Krock |
viwooh: should've made myself clearer, sorry. By "everything" I meant "every partially AI-assisted contribution" |
| 18:59 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> viwooh you might have an issue with this irc platform itself https://github.com/Libera-Chat/libera-chat.github.io/blob/main/policies.md#llms |
| 18:59 |
viwooh |
luatic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_AI |
| 18:59 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> So if what you said is correct, I would recommend to disconnect from this irc network as it's doing the same thing but a bit more accelerated in busy channels such as this |
| 19:00 |
Krock |
the greater the boom right now, the cheaper the RAM gets once the debts cannot be paid back |
| 19:01 |
|
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| 19:02 |
technomancy |
yeah but the form factor's wrong |
| 19:02 |
technomancy |
they're going to have to invent a new kind of laptop that can slot in ram that's scavenged from abandoned data centers |
| 19:02 |
technomancy |
finally the cyberpunk future I was promised |
| 19:02 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> You actually only need an adapter for that but it's probably just low profile which will fit in your pc's slots just fine |
| 19:03 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> viwooh: did you look at the graphic that says "energy consumption per typical ChatGPT query (0.3 watt-hours) is small compared to the average U.S. household consumption per minute (almost 20 watt-hours)"? |
| 19:04 |
Krock |
20 Wh per minute gives 1.2 kW, which is about a kettle or 1.5 microwaves. |
| 19:04 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> My microwave is 1200 watts |
| 19:05 |
Krock |
hopefully it does not use the 1.2 kW on slower heating |
| 19:05 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Certified American® Macrowave Technology |
| 19:05 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I dunno, I have to put things in there for 5 seconds or else they instantly explode |
| 19:05 |
sfan5 |
what about the energy spent on AI training however? |
| 19:05 |
viwooh |
luatic: Yes, but I remember there's more to the article that made me still not use LLMs |
| 19:06 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Well I am not sure how to tell you this, but you're probably training a few right now lol |
| 19:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> honestly many of these arguments seem dishonest to me. if you want to indirectly "sanction" "unreasonable" energy consumption, look at that. but i don't see anyone getting upset on the absurd amounts of CI hours that go into various projects, or all the other things in life that take lots of energy. |
| 19:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> sfan5: i think it's safe to assume that the energy spent on training will be bounded by the energy spent on operation in the long run |
| 19:07 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> this is necessary for profitability and VC money only gets you so far |
| 19:07 |
sfan5 |
long run sure |
| 19:07 |
sfan5 |
but AI mega-companies have been burning VC money on training 24/7 for years now |
| 19:08 |
Krock |
what does VC stand for? Did I miss a line? |
| 19:08 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Venture Capital |
| 19:08 |
Krock |
VanessaE Creative? |
| 19:08 |
sfan5 |
!server VC |
| 19:08 |
MinetestBot |
sfan5: No results |
| 19:08 |
sfan5 |
🤷 |
| 19:08 |
Krock |
it's fascinating that you can build an industry on hope and beliefs but it is what it is.... |
| 19:08 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Basically one day either the economy will completely shut down or they'll run out of vcm and implode and no more free chatbot or severely limited chatbot |
| 19:09 |
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| 19:10 |
sfan5 |
https://www.wheresyoured.at/anthropics-profitability-swindle/ good read btw |
| 19:11 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> well gotta milk the free tokens while it still lasts ;) |
| 19:11 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> QUICK USE AI MORE! |
| 19:11 |
Krock |
going further into offtopic - https://akinator.com/ is about the best AI in classic terms. |
| 19:11 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oh man I loved that game |
| 19:12 |
technomancy |
I asked Eliza if she could review this PR and she just said "Is it because of your mother that you say the transform adapter needs to be updated to stop calling the deprecated API?" |
| 19:13 |
technomancy |
which, I mean, she's not wrong |
| 19:14 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> We'll have to update the policy to blame any deprecated api calls on sfan5's mom |
| 19:15 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Also someone getting grossed out at the thought of ai being used for a single line of code lead me to combining those words into that sentence, what an interesting day |
| 19:18 |
viwooh |
luatic: I was told that the graphic made by an "AI" company "shoves" the organization's energy bills onto regular people |
| 19:21 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I wonder if that company is embezzling money through the energy company contract |
| 19:22 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> viwooh: is there any criticism of the claimed numbers? there are also plenty of sources that are not "AI" companies (and this isn't even one of the big AI companies, it's a nonprofit that researches AI: https://epoch.ai/about) |
| 19:23 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> also i don't see the problem with "shoving the organization's energy bills onto regular people". that's how the math for SaaS works? the consumption fairly directly corresponds to usage. |
| 19:24 |
technomancy |
local energy bills where I live are being driven up pretty significantly by data center construction |
| 19:26 |
technomancy |
no one here wants this awful shit but we pay for it anyway; that's democracy babey! |
| 19:26 |
rubenwardy |
also see RAM prices |
| 19:31 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> My ram is now worth $1400 when I paid 150 bucks for it |
| 19:32 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> So I say keep that price going up, maybe I can retire with a single ram stick |
| 19:33 |
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| 20:13 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> should probably cancel CI when a new commit is pushed to the same PR just saying |
| 20:13 |
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| 20:14 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> but I do think other heavy industry does need to be sanctioned more, it's called a carbon tax and actually it's very good for the economy not to get too neoliberal in here |
| 20:17 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> for too long agriculture especially but also transport have systematically distorted markets in favour of heavy emitters that don't pay for the externalities of their economic activity |
| 20:21 |
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| 20:27 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> freeminer if for nothing else than how long it has existed |
| 20:28 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> for a climate point of view perhaps a policy that would more than offset the LLM usage |
| 20:28 |
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| 20:38 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> no actually do own a bicycle, gram for gram, kilometer for kilometer on an average diet a bicycle is the most efficient mode of transportation that exists . Only walk if you hate the planet /j. Â If you live somewhere were energy is generated on a low or no carbon grid that shifts towards mass public transportation transit rail and electric bus service followed by electrical bicycle. https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-024-01924-4 |
| 21:10 |
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| 21:46 |
sfan5 |
voxelibre is indeed broken with the newest engine version |
| 21:47 |
sfan5 |
did someone tell them |
| 21:47 |
sfan5 |
? |
| 21:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> what breaks |
| 21:47 |
sfan5 |
2026-08-19 23:46:33: ERROR[Main]: ...netest/games/mineclone2/mods/HUD/vl_hudbars/builtins.lua:157: attempt to index global 'mcl_gamemode' (a nil value) |
| 21:47 |
Sheriff_U3 |
with what version? 5.17-rc1 or latest master? |
| 21:51 |
sfan5 |
luanti with custom changes, but close to master; VoxeLibre is v0.92.1 |
| 21:52 |
sfan5 |
i can't find an issue on their tracker |
| 21:53 |
Sheriff_U3 |
Running a test on Luanti 5.17-rc1 with latest from ContentDB |
| 21:53 |
Sheriff_U3 |
Can confirm that bug. |
| 21:54 |
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| 21:56 |
Sheriff_U3 |
sfan5: you opening a bug report? I can if your not. |
| 21:56 |
sfan5 |
feel free to |
| 21:56 |
Sheriff_U3 |
:thumbsup: |
| 21:56 |
sfan5 |
I don't have an account on their git forge |
| 21:57 |
Sheriff_U3 |
I just made one lol |
| 21:58 |
technomancy |
you can sign in with your github account apparently |
| 21:59 |
Sheriff_U3 |
That's what I did. |
| 21:59 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> oh yeah I had that crash the other day while testing something just off master |
| 21:59 |
technomancy |
lol their "sign in with mastodon" is actually mastodon.social |
| 21:59 |
technomancy |
so close to getting it right! |
| 21:59 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> as in it's not federated? |
| 22:00 |
technomancy |
yeah |
| 22:00 |
Sheriff_U3 |
Voxelibre works with Luanti v5.16.1 so it new to v5.17 |
| 22:00 |
technomancy |
kind of missing the entire point of mastodon |
| 22:00 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> can you do federated login with it? |
| 22:00 |
technomancy |
red.023: yeah, it's really easy |
| 22:00 |
technomancy |
I did it in about 100 lines of python and I've never written python before in my life |
| 22:01 |
technomancy |
https://dev.fennel-lang.org does federated login (but also supports github as a fallback; hoping some day we can get rid of that) |
| 22:01 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> mod load order bug? |
| 22:01 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I see they define mcl_gamemode, but it's only in one file |
| 22:01 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> and then only in one mod |
| 22:02 |
Sheriff_U3 |
what mod? |
| 22:03 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> PLAYER but it's used in HUD and ITEMS |
| 22:04 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> oh |
| 22:04 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> those are modpacks not mods |
| 22:04 |
Sheriff_U3 |
yeah... |
| 22:07 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> vl_hudbars - > mcl_util -> mcl_init doesn't depend on mcl_gamemode which is what implements the needed global |
| 22:08 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> @luatic do you think you would be able to make lack of explicit dependencies an error in the new require when logging is set high enough? |
| 22:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i think it already is |
| 22:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> independent of logging, it just errors |
| 22:10 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I thought it only checked for whatever the mod was loaded |
| 22:10 |
Sheriff_U3 |
issue to voxelibre is submitted |
| 22:10 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> which it could load by chance in the right order |
| 22:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> red-001: true, that's why we in principle have the randomize load order setting |
| 22:11 |
sfan5 |
it doesn't appear like VL has CI |
| 22:11 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i could also check for an explicit dependency, but then i'd need the engine to expose an API for that.. probably doable in ~20 loc or something though |
| 22:11 |
sfan5 |
they could then randomize the load order in CI |
| 22:11 |
sfan5 |
(minetest game does this, for example) |
| 22:11 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> a developer log if deprecated logging is enabled would be nice |
| 22:12 |
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| 22:13 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> exposing the graph to Lua might be useful in general |
| 22:13 |
technomancy |
so is it accurate to say that some tests which belong as part of "core luanti" get put in devtest instead because core luanti tests don't currently support tests being written in lua? |
| 22:14 |
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| 22:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> yes with a minor asterisk |
| 22:15 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> Is there much of an advantage to doing otherwise? |
| 22:15 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> it would be doable to set up a lua env in the C++ tests and run lua there, it would just be an awkward way to do it |
| 22:15 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> also worth pointing out that for pure lua tests like vector we have busted |
| 22:15 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> it seems might as well test in the actual environment |
| 22:15 |
technomancy |
do devtest's tests run in CI? |
| 22:15 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> yes |
| 22:15 |
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| 22:15 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> and not fall victim to unittest propaganda |
| 22:15 |
technomancy |
what's the command for doing that from the CLI? |
| 22:16 |
technomancy |
the way CI does it |
| 22:16 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I would check the build scripts |
| 22:16 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> and github workflow |
| 22:16 |
sfan5 |
some tests are better suited for pure lua, some are better suited for C++, and some are better suited for a full server environment with a real (albeit headless) client |
| 22:16 |
technomancy |
red.023: but I'm allergic to yaml ._. |
| 22:16 |
sfan5 |
technomancy: ./util/test_multiplayer.sh |
| 22:16 |
technomancy |
jk, I'll take a look |
| 22:16 |
technomancy |
sfan5: thanks |
| 22:16 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> when you have the setting i mentioned earlier set, you just start a server, with an additional mod that eventually shuts down the server (iirc?) |
| 22:16 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> have am LLM read it, yaml is not human writable or readable after all |
| 22:17 |
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| 22:17 |
Sheriff_U3 |
I like reading yaml though... |
| 22:18 |
technomancy |
in my own projects I just plop json in the yaml CI config files; so much more readable |
| 22:18 |
technomancy |
the best feature of yaml is that every yaml parser must accept json, so you never actually have to use yaml |
| 22:18 |
technomancy |
completely batshit design decision but I appreciate it nonetheless |
| 22:18 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I feel like unit testing once vibecoders found out about it 2 years ago has resulted in an unprecedented amount of tests that test absolutely nothing in vibe coded software |
| 22:19 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> a lot of very well tested IServerMock interfaces were generated for a while |
| 22:19 |
technomancy |
red.023: at work our vibecoded tests are split across scores of jobs and the total compute time is frequently over 24 hours |
| 22:19 |
technomancy |
then again sometimes the total is negative, so I think also someone vibecoded the github actions feature that sums up the total amount of time taken |
| 22:19 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> amazing you must not have regression then anymore right |
| 22:19 |
technomancy |
as you know, adding up numbers is a notoriously difficult job for computers to do |
| 22:20 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> we invented a field of mathematics called numerical analysis mostly anticipating it would be a problem and it turned out it was a problem |
| 22:21 |
technomancy |
my guess? probably they forgot to say "no mistakes" on that part |
| 22:21 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> but zero regressions right? |
| 22:22 |
technomancy |
lol |
| 22:23 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> technomancy you don't have regressions anymore right? all those ClientFactoryMockFactoryMock methods mean you don't have regressions surely |
| 22:23 |
technomancy |
three times just in the past two months we had someone commit code which made it look like failing tests were passing or just skipped important chunks of the test suite entirely |
| 22:23 |
Sheriff_U3 |
You know I've got a brilliant idea for a mod: A mod that exploits every possible security vulnerability (that has been patched in latest version) to convince people to upgrade to a newer Luanti version. |
| 22:24 |
technomancy |
Sheriff_U3: why stop there; use the vulnerability to perform the upgrade for them |
| 22:24 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I mean |
| 22:25 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> yeah it's possible but don't make fun of the sandbox like that |
| 22:25 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> call it couldihavebeenpwned |
| 22:25 |
Sheriff_U3 |
technamancy: I was thinking about just opening their web browser to a web page that talks about the security vulnerability. |
| 22:25 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> just because mod security has been broken since it has been invented up until a few months ago |
| 22:25 |
technomancy |
oh shit sounds spicy |
| 22:25 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> and somehow like fusion that seems to be true no matter when you say it |
| 22:25 |
technomancy |
is there a tl;dr I could read up on? |
| 22:26 |
technomancy |
wait, let me guess |
| 22:26 |
technomancy |
it has to do with accepting bytecode in loadstring? |
| 22:26 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> no |
| 22:26 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> no that was years ago |
| 22:26 |
technomancy |
damn |
| 22:26 |
Sheriff_U3 |
I wonder if we could convince ContentDB to accept it as a joke mod... |
| 22:26 |
technomancy |
(that's like 90% of sandbox escapes I've read about) |
| 22:26 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> no I think loadstring was never broken |
| 22:27 |
technomancy |
oh right; sandboxed loadstring already blocks bytecode |
| 22:27 |
technomancy |
I forgot I already checked that =) |
| 22:27 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> you know that joke about having a door made out of multiple layers of hardened composites  of metal and plastics and what have you? |
| 22:27 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> and someone brags you could never force it open |
| 22:27 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> so they just walk in through an open window? |
| 22:28 |
technomancy |
nice |
| 22:28 |
technomancy |
seriously tho is there a write-up? |
| 22:28 |
technomancy |
or is it still embargoed |
| 22:28 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> GHSA this has happened multiple times in the past |
| 22:28 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> red-0001: true, seems bytecode was prohibited since the beginning of modse |
| 22:29 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> c |
| 22:29 |
technomancy |
https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/security/advisories/GHSA-g596-mf82-w8c3 ah found it |
| 22:29 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> let's see August 2022, trivial mod security bypass https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/security/advisories/GHSA-663q-pcjw-27cc |
| 22:30 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> August 2024 another trivial bypass https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/security/advisories/GHSA-6f85-mqxh-76qp |
| 22:30 |
sfan5 |
requiring a mod be listed on trusted_mods is not trivial at all |
| 22:30 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> (that one was new I think actually so there's that) |
| 22:31 |
technomancy |
oh no, getfenv is just gone now? =( |
| 22:31 |
sfan5 |
getfenv is not gone either |
| 22:32 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/security/advisories/GHSA-44f7-f48m-vxcw the same type also requires a trusted mod on the list same bug class in a sense I suppose? |
| 22:32 |
technomancy |
oh, whew |
| 22:32 |
technomancy |
must have misread the patch |
| 22:32 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> but that one was old I think, I feel like it might have been mentioned when mod security was being developed |
| 22:32 |
technomancy |
first-class environments are maybe lua's best feature |
| 22:32 |
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| 22:33 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> are you thinking of a better/worse version of lua like 5.2 |
| 22:33 |
technomancy |
eh I mean |
| 22:33 |
technomancy |
the old version and the new version are both light years ahead of basically every other language out there |
| 22:34 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I suppose environments are literally first class in the VM not sure I would call it a great feature |
| 22:34 |
technomancy |
I don't have strong feelings on setfenv vs _ENV tbh |
| 22:34 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> they are completely different systems |
| 22:34 |
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| 22:35 |
technomancy |
idk they are different means of achieving the same thing the way I see it |
| 22:35 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> _ENV is probably conceptually easier? _ENV is just an upvalue that you index when you can't find a real up value |
| 22:35 |
technomancy |
without that feature you can't do ocaps, so you're hamstrung when it comes to security |
| 22:35 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> the code for it is nice |
| 22:35 |
technomancy |
https://justinpombrio.net/2021/12/26/preventing-log4j-with-capabilities.html |
| 22:39 |
technomancy |
my secret plan is to implement ocaps for luanti |
| 22:39 |
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| 22:39 |
technomancy |
because I love ocaps too much and I get sad when I have to code without them |
| 22:40 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> that's amazing if you are so interested in security maybe a peer review on #17466 then |
| 22:40 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/issues/17466 -- [no-sq] Merge and harden the two CSM sandboxes by red-001 |
| 22:40 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> the no-sq is aspirational |
| 22:42 |
technomancy |
I will take a look tonight! |
| 22:42 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> you don't actually have to |
| 22:42 |
technomancy |
it actually does sound pretty interesting |
| 22:42 |
technomancy |
oh wait |
| 22:42 |
technomancy |
this is C++ code |
| 22:42 |
technomancy |
I can't read this; sorry =( |
| 22:52 |
*Â SwissalpS |
conjures a forgiveness card. (14 left.) |
| 22:52 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oh no, you're supposed to be neutral. If you're running out of forgiveness cards we're in trouble |
| 23:00 |
SwissalpS |
(it's not like I'm the only one who has some ;p) |
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