| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:02 |
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| 00:05 |
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| 00:18 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> Linus Torvalds: |
| 00:18 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> > This is *NOT* some kind of "social warrior" project, never has been, and never will be. |
| 00:19 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> that comment always seemed incredibly tone-deaf given that y'know, the kernel is GPL and Torvalds had skin in the game about GPLv2 vs GPLv3, i.e. placing some importance on software freedom |
| 00:20 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> he's really just trying to throw weight around to stop endless debates |
| 00:22 |
|
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| 00:23 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> this sort of thing is why I kind of dislike the anti-ai side |
| 00:24 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> it should be up to the user if they want to install vibecoded mods |
| 00:24 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> all the contentdb should do is enforce disclousure and tagging |
| 00:25 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> I agree about the datacenters and the corporate bullshit but those guys go way too far sometimes |
| 00:25 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> if the anti-ai side considers the llm users making their own instance that does allow llm stuff a loss to fight then that's a certain bit of entitlement |
| 00:25 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> yeah |
| 00:25 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> that's more "anti{cloud llm}" |
| 00:25 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> yeah I can get behind that more |
| 00:26 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> imo it's not the tech itself but the corporate asshats that are the "face" of it rn |
| 00:26 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> mfers acting like running a local llm just to mess around with chatbots is the same as using datacenter llms |
| 00:27 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> "but chatbot ai psychosis" they sound like people talking about video games in the 90s |
| 00:27 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> yeah it exists to an extent but it is oftentimes caused by underlying mental health issues and isolation that existed before |
| 00:28 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> and violent video games can't really be scapegoated for the mental health crisis anymore |
| 00:28 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> yes and the technology made it worse. Much worse in some cases. Not in a way that avideo game would. It's not even fair to compare them |
| 00:29 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> LLMs do have serious, deep-rooted alignment problems and they act in a way that activates people to personify them and begin to trust and attempt to form relationships |
| 00:30 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> the instances where that person committed suicide "because of the chatbot" clearly had some serious underlying mental health issues before the fact |
| 00:30 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> "Bro was always at risk of getting psychosis before he smoked weed" - so he still shouldn't have been sold weed |
| 00:30 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> yet people acted like it was 100% the llm and that it was an avengers level threat |
| 00:30 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> llms are NOT the same as hallucinogenic |
| 00:31 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> fuck this |
| 00:31 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> ALL OF YOU are just going to frame me as a socopath |
| 00:31 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> yes let's all have a better day without this |
| 00:31 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> no |
| 00:32 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> you hate me and think I am a rabbid techbro |
| 00:32 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> there will be no peace, YALL want no peace |
| 00:33 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> you know what screw this server I am making my own game anyway (not vibecoded bc I want to take pride in my own acomplishments and not share the glory with a glorified autocomplete) |
| 00:34 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> "wow look how deranged the techbro side is, imma post this on reddit and get 50000 updoots" |
| 00:34 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> for the record though a chatbot is not the same as literal weed |
| 00:35 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> i'm tired of this, this is why I will never side with the anti-AI side bc yall always take the extreme position |
| 00:35 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> chatbots are kinda sychophantic but that's not even an llm-exclusive issue |
| 00:36 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> roleplaying with chatbots is comparable to playing an rpg |
| 00:36 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> just with less object permanence and more interactive npcs |
| 00:37 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> ok sorry for blowing up just now |
| 00:37 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> but I am kind of tired of everyone taking extreme positions on AI |
| 00:37 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> it is not the messiah, it is not the antichrist |
| 00:38 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> it is a tool and a toy that can be used to either make garfield argue with squidward about politics or lie about a life experience on r/aita |
| 00:40 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> and most of the big ticket news stories about serious shit happening bc of chatbots clearly had some underlying mental health issues beforehand |
| 00:40 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> sane people do not hurt themselves because a glorified video game npc tells them to |
| 00:40 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> it's like blaming school shootings for "violent first person shooters desensitizing people from violence" |
| 00:42 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> there are some arguments to be make about parental controls and making an age requirement but a lot of it just feels like the reincarnation of the video games cause school shootings scare from the 90s |
| 00:42 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> we don't need to ban chatbots we need to improve mental healthcare |
| 00:42 |
MTDiscord |
<alexiosthesixth> most people suffering from severe AI psychosis turn to the AI because they are socially isolated irl |
| 00:52 |
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| 01:45 |
technomancy |
two things can be bad at the same time |
| 01:46 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> ? |
| 01:48 |
technomancy |
current standards of mental healthcare and also LLMs |
| 02:02 |
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| 02:12 |
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| 02:16 |
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| 02:39 |
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| 04:00 |
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| 04:07 |
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| 04:30 |
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| 06:11 |
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| 06:28 |
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| 06:35 |
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| 06:38 |
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| 06:39 |
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| 06:54 |
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| 06:55 |
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| 06:57 |
Krock |
Fun. https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ftsa&q=\-Wnull-dereference automatically redirects to the first result of no relevance |
| 07:23 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> oh yeah, from pov the achilles' heel of DDG is that using backslash executes the "I'm feeling lucky" function... and I have no idea how to get around it so I use something else |
| 07:29 |
sfan5 |
I think you are supposed to put it in quotes |
| 07:59 |
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| 08:36 |
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| 09:35 |
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| 09:44 |
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| 09:55 |
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| 10:07 |
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| 10:17 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> 1 more patch version and then 6.0 will release |
| 10:17 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> right? |
| 10:43 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> Sheriff_U3 thank you for the update on your personal beef with a list published through git, you're really fighting an important struggle here |
| 10:43 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> can't just be having people make lists |
| 10:51 |
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| 11:10 |
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| 11:27 |
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| 12:17 |
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| 12:46 |
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| 12:47 |
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| 13:18 |
cheapie |
"-- Configuring done (106.4s)" |
| 13:18 |
cheapie |
this might take a while to buil |
| 13:18 |
cheapie |
build* |
| 13:27 |
MTDiscord |
<sheriff_u3> red-001: I don't have a list/blog published through git. So I'm not sure what you are referring to. |
| 13:30 |
MTDiscord |
<sheriff_u3> birdlover32767: It has not yet been determined when Luanti v6.0 will be released. Currently though it looks like it will be a while. |
| 13:30 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> surely it will release after 0.5.17.1 |
| 13:34 |
MTDiscord |
<sheriff_u3> They have already started development on v5.18 |
| 13:34 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> aw man |
| 13:36 |
MTDiscord |
<sheriff_u3> They are planning on making v6.0 a bigger update then v5.0 was. |
| 13:39 |
bgstack15 |
Oof, I hope they don't drop "core -> minetest" alias |
| 13:39 |
cheapie |
Even if they did, it would be trivial to put it back in |
| 13:40 |
cheapie |
Ooh, only took 5 minutes to build... the first file |
| 13:41 |
MTDiscord |
<sheriff_u3> bgstack15: that is one of the things I want them to drop |
| 13:53 |
bgstack15 |
Not that it itself is a problem, but all the old mods never bothered to switch to calling it "core" |
| 13:58 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> not everyone is taking extreme positions on AI, it's just that those who do tend to be the loudest about it. |
| 13:58 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> If anything when v6 comes around people would like to avoid the v4 to v5 dumpsterfire. That said its also been said more stuff should have been dropped in v4 to v5 |
| 13:59 |
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| 14:00 |
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| 14:01 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> the many pages of scroll-back about some list of slopware aside, perhaps you should make your own list of lists you are offended by |
| 14:03 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> what happens if i put it inside itself |
| 14:03 |
|
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| 14:03 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (for the IRC users: red-001 is replying to a message by Sheriff U3, "I don't have a list/blog published through git [...]") |
| 14:07 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> why drop the minetest alias though? does it gain anything? frees up the namespace, but it's not like anyone should release a mod named minetest? I guess if you purposefully want to make sure old mods break because 6.0 would potentially have other breaking changes ? |
| 14:08 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Personally thought, it would make more sense to break up the api into import/requirable chunks instead of mostly one giant thing under core/minetest |
| 14:08 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> agreed |
| 14:08 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> so that chatgpt doesn't say "use `minetest.get_connected_players()` at load time to check for singleplayer" probably |
| 14:08 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Course you have the function override issue |
| 14:09 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> yes apologize to IRC users, I presumed the bridge would note it was a reply to another message even if it couldn't show which one |
| 14:10 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> ok, breaking up the api into chunks - that would make sense and would be a good reason to drop any single alias i guess. Would be quite a change, I'm not saying bad, but you instantly lose a lot of mods out of the box, the tradeoffs (e.g. new features) better be worth it |
| 14:10 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> If anything minetest.env should be burned in a fire. Or whatever it is. The orginal api |
| 14:11 |
* cheapie |
chases wsor4035 around with a minetest.env:add_node() call |
| 14:11 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> who even uses *that* anymore |
| 14:11 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Could most likely do that now tho tbh. Barely anything uses it |
| 14:11 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Ancient ass mods |
| 14:11 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Cheapie: I run away screaming |
| 14:11 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> "ancient ass mods" - wonder where the dash goes, between the first two words or between words 2 and 3 :) |
| 14:12 |
cheapie |
depends on the mod |
| 14:12 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> That a reference to the xkcd? |
| 14:12 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> https://xkcd.com/37/ |
| 14:12 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I don't think dropping globals really is meaningful |
| 14:12 |
cheapie |
IIRC roads still has some minetest.env usage in it, but that was itself a combination of an ancient-ass mod (streets) and ancient ass-mod (infrastructure) in the first place |
| 14:12 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> apparently it is a reference to xkcd, i didn't know, it's a general joke |
| 14:13 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Anyways, if your still using minetest.env imo your code deserves not to work |
| 14:13 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> some of those 5.0 breaking changes could be described in a similar way tbh, that it wasn't really clear why dropping it was actually beneficial to anything |
| 14:13 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> .zenonseth: you beat me to it :P |
| 14:14 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> i mean dropping deprecated things eventually is fair, Luanti isn't the linux kernel, where breaking user space is a bug no-go |
| 14:14 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> big no-go* |
| 14:14 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> And similar to other things dropped like physics override, someone can make a polyfill that should die |
| 14:14 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> making more tables read-only and a new unsandboxed Lua environment like I suggested before (dropping old trusted mods) I think would be more beneficial, ancient trusted-mods are almost always insecure ones that allow sandbox escapes if enabled |
| 14:15 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> to be fair sometimes you do need to override tables |
| 14:15 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> yes what's wrong with physics override, I don't really know anything about that, wsor |
| 14:15 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> and you shouldn't need to go knocking on coredevs' doors to change them |
| 14:15 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> agree, as long as its not a security issue, table overrides give more flexibility |
| 14:16 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> I wrote a polyfill for the ancient physics override api. You should not use it |
| 14:16 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> birdlover32767: I don't disagree exactly but I think it should be only core and not object metatables or string.* or os.* |
| 14:16 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> or the globals table itself |
| 14:16 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> freeze globals, make any writes a mod does go to a compat local metatable, enforce use of require |
| 14:18 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> On another note, it's very annoying when you want to do a s/old/new on here and discord catches that and makes the edit, I wish the IRC bot would detect an edited message and output that again on the other side if it's not too long |
| 14:18 |
cheapie |
I've been in channels that did that, it was somehow even more annoying than just not having the edit |
| 14:19 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> I still do corrections with "new thing*" sometimes, even in platforms where edits are a thing |
| 14:19 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> also it's criminal that tab does not auto-complete chat commands yet |
| 14:19 |
cheapie |
It was real fun when you got a giant wall of text, then a few seconds later the entire wall of text again with one word different and you had to read the thing twice to figure out what changed |
| 14:19 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> yes, call the police, real crime has been committed |
| 14:20 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> cheapie you'd love discord, i swear some people type in multiple lines because of the mese shard point system thing |
| 14:20 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> like one to two words per line |
| 14:20 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> a REAL crime is when you do `local minetest = minetest` |
| 14:20 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> cheapie: no I'm suggesting the bot runs a diff, and figures out if it's a one word change or something short like that, and posts it as s/tyop/typo as is somewhat of an IRC convention |
| 14:21 |
cheapie |
That would be nice |
| 14:21 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> new issue s/hi/im new |
| 14:21 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> cause I literally can't do that from the discord end, cause the annoying web client will just replace it |
| 14:22 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> wait i totally misunderstood that disregard |
| 14:22 |
cheapie |
birdlover32767: Real crime? Take them to https://cheapiesystems.com/media/2025-12-12%2019-32-47.webm :D |
| 14:23 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I've been watching the Sopranos lately and I think it has important things to say about AI tbh but I refuse to expand on that, seminal american television that is |
| 14:24 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> Al Lombardo? what'd he ever do to you? |
| 14:24 |
cheapie |
That restaurant is still there (minus the siren) |
| 14:24 |
cheapie |
Those Luacontrollers have about 3000 lines of code each, because reasons :P |
| 14:24 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> that steve looks a bit... weird |
| 14:25 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> cheapie how are LuaControllers sandboxed? |
| 14:25 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> also i just love it when people post stuff like "I have weird opinions but don't ask me about them! I swear i won't expand on them" - not attention seeking at all |
| 14:25 |
cheapie |
red.023: They get their own environment with limits on instruction count and persistent memory size |
| 14:26 |
cheapie |
Or if you mean how it's implemented, mostly setfenv and pcall |
| 14:26 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> wait so it's like a Lua VM inside Lua? or did someone figure out a way to actually use debug hooks well |
| 14:26 |
cheapie |
They're using debug hooks |
| 14:26 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> it would be kinda nice if the engine did that as a feature, but that's never getting merged even if it was made |
| 14:26 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> it's a bit of a hackjob. i'm not quite sure how they solved the exponential string concat problem. |
| 14:27 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i mean if you have a lua VM in lua that can just be a mod? |
| 14:27 |
cheapie |
Maybe I should turn RVController into a mod sometime and /that/ can just be your VM :P |
| 14:27 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I meant a sandbox, but you're right for a VM implementation that isn't much reason not to |
| 14:28 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> first we gotta fix our own sandboxing :juanchi_face: |
| 14:29 |
* cheapie |
looks to see how that build is coming |
| 14:29 |
cheapie |
5% |
| 14:30 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> just let cheapie write a sanbox mod and then run all mods through that, why not |
| 14:30 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> new cve discovered: malicious mods are able to kick everyone who joins |
| 14:31 |
cheapie |
.zenonseth: At some point you'd end up with me getting Luanti running in emulation inside of some other mod and just putting the mods in there |
| 14:31 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> birdlover32767: how LLMs move when you ask them to do a security review |
| 14:31 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> fixes: `core.disconnect_player = nil; core.kick_player = nil` |
| 14:32 |
cheapie |
birdlover32767: New CVE, server administrator can cause a denial of service by not starting the server |
| 14:33 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> more like "malicious server can DoS clients by decompression bomb" :juanchi_face: |
| 14:33 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> luatic: not wrong, I still think we should have had a separate GHSA for some of that, and then re-write everything in rust |
| 14:33 |
* cheapie |
rewrites red.023 in RISC-V assembly |
| 14:33 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> everything? |
| 14:34 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> BREAKING: New CVE discovered that allows malicious players to drug the server operator until they hand over the admin password to gain control of the server |
| 14:34 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> every time someone sees someone else's code: "we should rewrite this to be better" |
| 14:34 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> tbh i have played with the thought because LLMs seem to make a full Rust rewrite possible, but i feel like development would not necessarily survive such an endeavour |
| 14:35 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> just have fable do it, it will use unsafe 324 times and introduce 10 new critical CVEs you will have to pay GPT 6 Galaxia to fix |
| 14:35 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> a small price to pay for Rust :juanchi_face: |
| 14:35 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> maybe there is a middle ground though? |
| 14:35 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> development can barely survive being given a short PR to review or merge |
| 14:35 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> why not zig? it can use c code straight up, who cares its still not past 1.0 |
| 14:36 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> e.g. there is a mostly "safe" subset of C++, could make it use more of that |
| 14:36 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> not to say I was right, but I did say to do the media loading in Rust |
| 14:36 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> real men only code with fully released packages |
| 14:37 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> <insert link to no-true-scottsman wiki page here> |
| 14:38 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I think switching to Luau would be an interesting move |
| 14:39 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> who even needs nodes when we have parts |
| 14:39 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Luau genuinely seems decently engineered and unsurprisingly fits our use case but it just doesn't feel right to me |
| 14:39 |
rubenwardy |
is Luau based on LuaJIT or PUC? |
| 14:39 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> it's the only Lua version that's intended to be sandboxed and is open sourced, unlike LuaJIT which explicitly does not support any kind of sandboxing to the extend that's possible while still maintaining compatibility with Lua PUC |
| 14:39 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> rubenwardy: PUC, mostly 5.1 like our version but they copied from 5.2 as well |
| 14:40 |
cheapie |
That sounds like it would be a disaster for performance |
| 14:40 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> the diff is a mess, there's a lot of places where they added new features or they changed code seemingly to make it follow defensive coding (like asserting pre-conditions) |
| 14:40 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> it does hurt performance vs JIT. some of it can be recovered though. |
| 14:40 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> they have a JIT now |
| 14:40 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> it's experimental |
| 14:41 |
cheapie |
6% \o/ |
| 14:41 |
cheapie |
and it's only been... over an hour |
| 14:41 |
cheapie |
I should probably be cross-compiling |
| 14:42 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> cheapie are you compiling luanti or what? |
| 14:43 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> The biggest issue I see is we would need to probably vendor the Lua "libraries" like os and io since we need those for the insecure environment, or I suppose could just write our own version of io and for os, etc just replicate the functions that mods actually use |
| 14:43 |
cheapie |
.zenonseth: Yes (just the server), on what effectively amounts to a DVD player control chip from 2001 |
| 14:43 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> shipped with LuaSocket or websockets would probably do 90% of that right? |
| 14:44 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> Maybe someone can run a check on content db to get a list of mods that request an insecure environment would help with building out that trusted environment concept I had |
| 14:44 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> > on what effectively amounts to a DVD player control chip from 2001 that explains why its been 1% in like 30mins... |
| 14:44 |
cheapie |
wsor4035: ^ zipgrep time? |
| 14:45 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> does it have fans at least |
| 14:45 |
cheapie |
birdlover32767: no |
| 14:45 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> zipgrep for io and os? |
| 14:45 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> no for insecure environment |
| 14:45 |
cheapie |
For request_insecure_environment |
| 14:46 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> that will be $9.99 😛 |
| 14:46 |
* cheapie |
/give wsor4035 currency:minegeld_10 |
| 14:46 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> anyways, be done a bit, might be slightly longer as im doing some other stuff |
| 14:46 |
cheapie |
keep the change |
| 14:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (the bridge also doesn't markdown escape messages sent on IRC btw. sometimes that's a feature, sometimes not.) |
| 14:48 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I think a bigger issue with Luau is that it changes semantics enough that debug doesn't quite work, something like in-Lua sandboxing by mods might break |
| 14:49 |
cheapie |
.zenonseth: This is what I'm compiling it on: https://theretroweb.com/chipset/documentation/55x-6454c074488b2098410908-6a5fc9af9f03b826408093.pdf |
| 14:50 |
cheapie |
Mine is the 550, which is just the 552 (the one that's effectively a DVD player chip) minus the video decoding and a few other things |
| 14:50 |
cheapie |
The CPU core is pretty much a Rise mP6 PR266 |
| 14:52 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> hm a pure x86, ok |
| 14:52 |
* cheapie |
nods, 586+MMX |
| 14:53 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> to be honest i haven't thought about luanti running on 32 bit systems but i guess why not |
| 14:53 |
cheapie |
CPU-Z not only detects the wrong clock speed (it's only 200MHz) but has no clue what the processor even is: https://valid.x86.fr/95rcdu |
| 14:54 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> i mean the processor pre-dates CPU-Z by quite a bit no? and the 90s was a crazy game with hardware, from what i've read |
| 14:54 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> also, i have to ask, aside from "why not?" - why ? |
| 14:54 |
cheapie |
Because user333_ was running Luanti on a potato and I wanted to run it on more of a potato |
| 14:54 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> ah ok the potato competition, sounds good |
| 14:55 |
cheapie |
I have slower boxes than this but this seemed like a good place to start |
| 14:55 |
cheapie |
ca5$ grep name /proc/cpuinfo |
| 14:55 |
cheapie |
model name : Unknown 586-class |
| 14:56 |
cheapie |
It's also a bit of a learning experience, I have it running NetBSD 11 and I'm not very familiar with the BSDs |
| 14:57 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> im surprised its an actual somewhat known (at least i've heard the name) distro |
| 14:57 |
cheapie |
I would have done Linux, but most Linux distros don't support 586-class CPUs any more |
| 14:57 |
cheapie |
I mean, IIRC Gentoo does, but I don't want to spend all year on this |
| 14:58 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> one of my first jobs back in 2014 was for a set top box company and they had some.. idk what .,.. linux kernel stripped down to almost nothing, i think it only worked with telnet at the time |
| 14:58 |
cheapie |
ooh, 7% |
| 14:58 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> good luck! please report back the results when you get them in the next week! |
| 14:59 |
cheapie |
The choice of NetBSD in particular here is because their system requirements seem to still be along the lines of "CPU recommended" |
| 14:59 |
cheapie |
Heck, supposedly it still runs on a suitably-expanded VAX-11/780 from 1977 |
| 15:00 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> yeah no idea what that is, afraid to google it, lest google starts showing me ads for dimensia medication :P |
| 15:00 |
cheapie |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAX-11 |
| 15:02 |
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| 15:05 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> cheapie: https://content.luanti.org/zipgrep/be944618-d512-4794-a7a8-1c4e1e19a894/ |
| 15:05 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> also, try installing hannah montana linux on it |
| 15:05 |
cheapie |
red.023: ^ |
| 15:05 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> oh that's not too many, I guess I'll go manually code those |
| 15:06 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> oh them is a fully LLM generated mod inside a system prompt, amazing |
| 15:06 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> one of* |
| 15:09 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> one of them is a dupe from `modlib` |
| 15:10 |
cheapie |
FWIW, the rest of the specs of the box I'm compiling Luanti on, aside from the SiS 550 itself: about 512MiB RAM, Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 9 60GB hard drive, a Pioneer DVR-105 as the first drive I grabbed off the shelf that can read CD-RW, and not much else |
| 15:10 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> 2 of them are dupes from `mapsync` |
| 15:10 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> s/2/3 |
| 15:10 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> umh |
| 15:11 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> folxs is the file object metatable immutable? |
| 15:12 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> actually wait 4 from modlib, 3 from mapsync and 4 from skins_db (one has both modlib and skins_db) |
| 15:12 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> and fmod has it commented out |
| 15:15 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> skins_db seems like the easiest to just support in-engine, more of an unintended bad side effect of blocking mods from modifying their own code (perhaps wasn't really something needed to be blocked but certainly was the easiest way to stop some escape paths) |
| 15:15 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> surely that DB can go into world storage no? same with the textures |
| 15:16 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> maybe some sort of installation-global mod storage if it really can't |
| 15:30 |
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| 15:33 |
sfan5 |
dynamic_add_media works at load time btw |
| 15:33 |
sfan5 |
there's no reason skinsdb can't work |
| 15:34 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> notes so far |
| 15:34 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> # Usage of insecure enviroment - SkinsDB - Write using insecure, mod modifies itself, unsure why this is required - modslib - lsqlite3, could be implemented using HTTP or websocket API with external DB most likely, or could add DB support - Quiz - not fully updated, not required by the mod - dreambuilder game (mtt) - test system, needs access to require to load luacov, could be supported by engine better - Unified Money Backend - sqlite3, |
| 15:34 |
MTDiscord |
unclear why it needs this, seems to be more of tech demo - MQTT - Implements a messaging protocol, needs LuaSockets, could be move to a local service if we had fast sockets probably, most likely more of a tech demo - Simple protector - lsqlite3, could be replaced if the engine supported storing spacial information in the world map DB |
| 15:35 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> spatial* |
| 15:35 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> coverage testing and spatial information seem to be the main uses outside of demos or mods not using features they could |
| 16:10 |
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| 16:13 |
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| 16:21 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> @luatic why not string.dump in the SSCSM sandbox? Roblox is very unclear about why they removed it, was hoping maybe you have a more clear idea of the issue with it? |
| 16:21 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> it's a bit of an info leak I suppose but seemed like a fairly minor/trivial one |
| 16:22 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> they are not clear about it at all, one page claims it's for security, another claims it's because it's not required anymore |
| 16:22 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> well for one it's not very useful if you can't load bytecode, is it? |
| 16:22 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> no disagreement but would have made the sandbox policy 30 LOC shorter if you just included all of string innit |
| 16:23 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> it makes sense for them |
| 16:23 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> they can just delete the code |
| 16:24 |
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| 16:24 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> is newproxy dropped by the sandboxes or is github search failing again |
| 16:25 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> kinda insane that there's a whole undocumented function in Lua |
| 16:26 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> iirc it was not included, but considering that 5.1 already deprecated it that is also not necessarily a bad idea |
| 16:26 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I don't believe the reference manual even mentions it for 5.1 |
| 16:27 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> nor 5.0 actually |
| 16:28 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> Lua user mailing list has described it as an undocumented feature |
| 16:28 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> well wasn't it removed in 5.2 or so? |
| 16:30 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I don't know, seems plausible |
| 16:30 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> umh yeah I think I found another thing you cannot do safely in code that uses the insecure environment |
| 16:31 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> more and more I think that feature needs to be dropped, there's no anti tampering isolation for it |
| 16:33 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the ability to disable mod security must be kept and is cheap to keep, the idea of isolated "trusted mods" would require proper env isolation |
| 16:37 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> Lua 5.4.6 Copyright (C) 1994-2023 Lua.org, PUC-Rio |
| 16:37 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> > string.dump |
| 16:37 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> function: 0x64bd27dd5c80 |
| 16:37 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I kinda feel like people can just recompile tbh if they don't want mod security, like with the proposed changes to require recompiling for built-in edits |
| 16:38 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> birdlover32767: I know your ASLR base address now, consider lua repl pwned |
| 16:38 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> oh no! anyways |
| 16:39 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> except not really cause it prints the heap address for the closure |
| 16:40 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I don't really feel strongly about it but for debugging or what have you the engine should really implement that |
| 16:40 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> mmh is bytecode that useful |
| 16:41 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> or disabling mod security should also disable it for the CSM and SSCSM and all other sandboxes if this is meant to be an intentional footgun that everyone has the right to use, like that chrome command line to disable process isolation |
| 16:42 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> turns out disabling mod security enables skynet |
| 16:44 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> like bin/luanti --dangerous-disable-sandboxing and make it print a big warning message too on the main menu |
| 16:45 |
rubenwardy |
Is there any legit reason to disable mod security when insecure envs exist |
| 16:45 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I don't think so but clearly some people would disagree considering we are having this conversation |
| 16:46 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> maybe just the insecure environment being kinda poorly designed |
| 16:46 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> for when you have too many mods requiring insecure env but are too lazy to put them all in manually |
| 16:46 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> or checking for vulnerabilities... although you can just put it in individually so that is moot |
| 16:47 |
rubenwardy |
Also skinsdb stores in moddata not the mod |
| 16:47 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> rubenwardy: it might be an old version perhaps? it seemed to store in the mod in that one, moddata is that a per-mod storage or the per-world per-mod storage? |
| 16:48 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the use case is simply you are running a trusted mod set, want to interact with other processes. |
| 16:48 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> disabling mod security is the easiest way to do that. |
| 16:48 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> yeah I think that's unusual and people can really just compile from source |
| 16:48 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> and if they can't they shouldn't be doing this |
| 16:49 |
rubenwardy |
Unpublished skinsdb for Hades for leaking the ie |
| 16:49 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> but command line would at least be a start, it can be a CMAKE flag either |
| 16:49 |
rubenwardy |
Mod data is per mod global storage |
| 16:49 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> you know maybe for the same reason `rm` has `--no-preserve-root` |
| 16:50 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> yeah that's a command line flag tho, not something a user can just set in the menu |
| 16:50 |
rubenwardy |
The engine should probably look for global assignments of the ie and throw an error |
| 16:50 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> wait it did? |
| 16:50 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> ^ replying to ruben about it leaking ie |
| 16:51 |
rubenwardy |
But again the whole thing is so leaky, needs the completely separate envs as said |
| 16:51 |
rubenwardy |
Yeah. Skinsdb for Hades did `skins.ie =` where skins is a global |
| 16:51 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> but then it sets ie back to nil a few lines down |
| 16:51 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> that seems really stupid though |
| 16:52 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> it IS really stupid, but I thought that won't leak |
| 16:52 |
Krock |
that stupid is outdated |
| 16:52 |
Krock |
skinsdb no longer uses the insecure env |
| 16:52 |
rubenwardy |
You can set a meta table on _G to capture the skins assignment and then add a callback to that |
| 16:52 |
rubenwardy |
If you mod loads before this skinsdb |
| 16:53 |
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| 16:53 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I don't think that happens anymore since it turned out it was basically impossible to avoid leaking ie if other mods loaded first |
| 16:53 |
rubenwardy |
Ah |
| 16:53 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> well actually maybe direct depends do load first do they? |
| 16:54 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> I remember there was a PR about this since trying to sandbox anything was so hard |
| 16:54 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> but it was actually cause it used the file metable, it was still insecure, someone can overwrite that and intercept file writes I think |
| 16:55 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> which I guess you can avoid by writing crazy defensive code and copying the functions somewhere safe |
| 16:56 |
rubenwardy |
Anyway, getting an ie just to write to a mod directory is very much something that should not be a permitted use of insecure env on ContentDB |
| 16:56 |
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| 16:56 |
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| 16:56 |
rubenwardy |
ContentDB should detect use of request_insecure_environment and ask devs to provide a justification |
| 16:57 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> and make sure it is in a lua file without being commented! |
| 16:57 |
rubenwardy |
Shame we don't have permissions in mod.conf to prevent mods from sneaking their way around detections |
| 16:58 |
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| 16:59 |
rubenwardy |
Lol Krock wrote this code |
| 16:59 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> could I think just do a small breaking change and require the use of http/insecure to be declare in mod.conf? technically breaks backwards compat but it's an easy fix for a player that knows what they are doing, and if they don't, well not to be rude but I don't think they should be enabling a mod using those |
| 17:01 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> that's too harsh, people can run whatever software they want, but I don't think the current way it works makes it clear enough you are allowing arbitrary code execution on your system |
| 17:01 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> damn, looking through recent contentdb additions and a lot of mods have ai generated stuff |
| 17:01 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> people love their plagiarism machines as long as they work and don't happen to impact their own job lol |
| 17:02 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> s/a lot/everything i looked at |
| 17:02 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> not that people haven't had similar attitudes in the past to whatever significantly worse horrors the industrial revolution gave us |
| 17:03 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> like yeah LLMs have a lot of issues, a Victorian factory was about as close to hell as you can get |
| 17:04 |
Krock |
rubenwardy: https://i.imgflip.com/2/8u5o7u.jpg |
| 17:04 |
Krock |
those developers! |
| 17:05 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> well in the common sense of hell, theological conceptions of hell are not really something I know too much about, other than that its a wide range of options |
| 17:06 |
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| 17:10 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> after counting it seems like 26 out of 40 items in the recent place have the ai tag |
| 17:10 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> dividing gives... 13*0.05 = 65% |
| 17:14 |
Krock |
I nominate https://content.luanti.org/packages/Strength4549/bucket_flow_fix/ for the Artwork Of The Year 2026 (it made me smile) |
| 17:17 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> looking through random i got 5 out of 40 with the ai tag |
| 17:17 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> which is 12.5% |
| 17:18 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> why not just run the API to check |
| 17:19 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> rubenwardy: is the release number for CDB like a version number for the whole database? I'm trying to understand how the client is able to open the CDB so quickly despite it taking like 2 minutes on first load |
| 17:20 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> like a generation counter or something |
| 17:21 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> i wonder what will happen for the game jam |
| 17:22 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> llm maxing I presume |
| 17:23 |
rubenwardy |
Takes like 2s to load the entire package list though? |
| 17:23 |
rubenwardy |
The release int is just a global auto increment |
| 17:24 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> maybe it was my internet |
| 17:25 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> but it was like a solid 30 seconds sometimes while I was testing POCs for that GHSA |
| 17:26 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> related but just got an error response from some LLM provider endpoint and it's the most insane schema I have ever seen HTTP 500: {"type":"error","error":{"type":"error","message":"Internal server error"}} |
| 17:30 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> 3435 packages total |
| 17:32 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> seemingly i can't get flag=genai to work... |
| 17:37 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> anyone knows why /api/packages/?flag=gambling works but not /api/packages/?flag=anyai |
| 17:37 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> I made a script a while back to analyse the cumulative distribution of package AI disclosure over time. the blue is of course an unknown that could be anything |
| 17:37 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1540776928326455348/image.png?ex=6a8b2fd5&is=6a89de55&hm=81353cc7ca6f6af5e14351cad1880c0364bd14eeed99d3d9a9bc0242a2dac5f3& |
| 17:37 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> ah you beat me to it |
| 17:39 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> that url is going to expire in 2 days or so... |
| 17:39 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> birdlover perhaps check the source code for CDB |
| 17:39 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> and here is non-cumulative based on per month. so yeah, even though there is a big amount of packages that are marked as NONE, a lot of packages now are either marked as assisted or generated |
| 17:39 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1540777550425628682/image.png?ex=6a8b306a&is=6a89deea&hm=e9554394f4d6ddb6b938dc1e2688a72491064842b8ba396badeee23b804d37ff& |
| 17:41 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> also i assume that a noticeable chunk of "NONE" is also ai in disguise |
| 17:42 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> yeah I would probably assume there is some amount of packages with AI generated code that are marked as NONE |
| 17:42 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> lot more obvious to see it for generated assets than with code |
| 17:43 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> i say descriptions are **also obvious** when **half** the words are in **boldface** or *italics* |
| 17:45 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> s/* s/*–s |
| 17:45 |
sfan5 |
you could let an AI detect the AI |
| 17:46 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> "that url is going to expire..." I could upload these images somewhere more permanent but I can also just put up the scripts I use in a github gist: https://gist.github.com/rollerozxa/fad7bcd286dd7d053077ef77a7fc7c0a |
| 17:47 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> it runs on an extracted CDB data export which you can find here: https://content.luanti.org/help/backups/ |
| 17:48 |
sfan5 |
I find worrying about expiry weird considering people on IRC use temporary file hosting all the time |
| 17:54 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> whats the license of gists? |
| 17:54 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> I can put the ai script to run on my mirror every time it updates probably, if i pull the ai disclosure column too |
| 17:55 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> I put 0BSD in the gist title, do whatever you want with the scripts. currently it generates a matplotlib graph out of the data |
| 17:57 |
MTDiscord |
<.zenonseth> ok, i may have to figure out a different way to visualize it, but i can at least use your script as a starting point and keep the historic data |
| 18:29 |
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| 18:38 |
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| 19:22 |
cheapie |
Compilation progress update, about 6 hours in: 35% |
| 19:26 |
MTDiscord |
<red.023> are you compiling Luanti |
| 19:28 |
cheapie |
yes |
| 19:43 |
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| 19:45 |
Krock |
cheapie: I hope you disabled LTO and perhaps -O2 instead of -O3 |
| 19:46 |
cheapie |
Krock: LTO is off (CMake's test of it failed anyway and I wasn't going to debug that, but then I explicitly turned it off too), optimization is at whatever the default was |
| 19:48 |
cheapie |
Looks like said default is -O3 |
| 19:49 |
Krock |
it took about 35 minutes on a Celeron D, for reference. |
| 19:49 |
cheapie |
Also -march=i486 for some reason, I probably should've made that -march=pentium-mmx but *shrug* |
| 19:50 |
cheapie |
There doesn't seem to be an -march=mp6 otherwise I would say it would be that one |
| 20:09 |
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| 21:06 |
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| 21:07 |
sfan5 |
disabling warnings will actually save time on weak systems |
| 21:19 |
cheapie |
A bit late for that now |
| 21:19 |
red-001 |
<rubenwardy> Is there any legit reason to disable mod security when insecure envs exist |
| 21:19 |
red-001 |
Opened an issue about this #17492 by take is it should be a command line flag if it's kept, and the engine should warn when messing with other security-related settings mods aren't allowed to modify and explain to the user what they are doing. But I'm not a UX researcher so I'm not too sure I know the solutions that would work best |
| 21:19 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/issues/17492 -- The engine should do more to protect the user from themselves |
| 21:20 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> maybe you should have tried 0.4.x first |
| 21:24 |
cheapie |
If I wanted a release version, I'd just do "pkgin install luanti" (and probably have to install some other sets, but whatever) and... they're actually shipping 5.17 already |
| 21:24 |
cheapie |
But part of this whole thing is I wanted to see how long compiling would take |
| 21:24 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> "ERROR[ServerStart]: worldedit_gui requires a supported gui management mod to be installed." - world edit |
| 21:25 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> wrong line oh god (also worldedit*) |
| 21:25 |
[MatrxMT] |
<birdlover32767> "To use the it you need to either:" i will get back after i use the it |
| 21:25 |
cheapie |
Looks like the binary packages they have are still 5.16.1, but same story, I could just install those but I wanted to compile |
| 22:01 |
pgimeno |
birdlover32767: why is `local minetest = minetest` a crime? localizing globals is pretty standard practice in both PUC and LJ |
| 22:05 |
pgimeno |
from the previously posted list https://content.luanti.org/zipgrep/be944618-d512-4794-a7a8-1c4e1e19a894/ - out of the listed 61 mods, I counted 11 using core.request_blah and 50 using minetest.request_blah, it seems that few mods update that |
| 22:18 |
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| 23:22 |
cheapie |
When you do half a click with the screwdriver: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/2026-08-22%2018-19-47.webm |
| 23:24 |
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