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| 10:17 |
ltuyen |
Hello. |
| 10:20 |
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| 10:23 |
ltuyen |
Is Luanti absolutely politics-free unlike Minecraft? |
| 10:25 |
ireallyhateirc |
ltuyen, can't say for the core devs but Luanti is free software meaning you don't have to agree politically with the devs to use it |
| 10:25 |
ireallyhateirc |
but there's probably ToS for services such as Luanti's ContentDB, server announcement, forums, tec. |
| 10:25 |
ireallyhateirc |
etc.* |
| 10:27 |
ireallyhateirc |
but since it is FOSS you can host your own counterparts if you don't like the ToS |
| 10:28 |
MTDiscord |
<et086> well... to more simply answer the question: no |
| 10:30 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> nothing is politics-free |
| 10:31 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> as ireallyhateirc said though, it's free software, and so it ContentDB and the serverlist and minetestmapper and so on. So you just do with it as you please |
| 10:35 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> that part IS separable from the forums, website, github, IRC, MAtrix discord, mastodon, et cetera in a way that's impossible with proprietary Minecraft |
| 11:04 |
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| 11:39 |
Ingar |
Luanti doesnt revoke your access if you're not using an MS account |
| 11:54 |
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| 12:06 |
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| 12:09 |
ltuyen |
Didn't know that Mojang added weird controversial political splash text into children's game Minecraft in 2020 |
| 12:14 |
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| 12:53 |
SwissalpS |
/4/4 |
| 13:08 |
sfan5 |
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GqrRt-6W8AAcwRl?format=jpg&name=large is this considered controversial these days? |
| 13:09 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> in the parts of the USA that are very anti-CRT, yes |
| 13:10 |
sfan5 |
no idea what CRT is but not being racist is just basic decency |
| 13:10 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Listen, at this point if I fart too hard and someone is outside and hears it, I might be considered controversial |
| 13:11 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> I don't see a future for this conversation, really I don't think the premise is good |
| 13:12 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> ltuyen leads with an innocent-sounding question but it quickly devolves into bickering and rhetoric after a question like that |
| 13:12 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Racism in any form for anyone against anyone is bad |
| 13:13 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> well yes, I'd like to affirm that |
| 13:14 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> but people usually use even that above statement as a wedge to try to open up debates about what should and shouldn't be done to combat racism and how some other boogeyman is wrong |
| 13:18 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> let's just end on this note: luanti as a software is relatively apolitical because it's supposed to be an engine / platform, it doesn't really have an identity. (well you could argue that some of the usual open source values are political, but eh.) |
| 13:19 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> that's a pretty good note. We don't have a nonprofit, we don't campaign stuff. That's the answer, and close it |
| 13:25 |
sfan5 |
(btw the user left an hour ago) |
| 13:26 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> https://tenor.com/view/jinx-the-cat-jinx-jinx-cat-cat-computer-gif-25786466 |
| 13:26 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> How good is digtron though? |
| 13:27 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I didn't even realize there was a conversation before that lmao |
| 13:31 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> mfw one grillion chat platforms |
| 13:32 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> the chat platforms we have aren't good enough, let's add XMPP |
| 13:32 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oh man |
| 13:32 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Hook the discord bot into the irc, then have an irc bot hooked into discord, and watch as it explodes |
| 13:33 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> discord will get banned for flooding first, then IRC should be okay |
| 14:07 |
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| 14:40 |
bgstack15 |
I absolutely love that all the web-based components of Luanti are FLOSS! I run my own internal (slightly modified) luanti serverlist project. |
| 14:42 |
bgstack15 |
The modifications basically remove security so there's no good reason to upstream the changes, but I wonder if they could inspire anybody. I accept "hostname$30020" as the server_url because all my servers run in docker on the default (internal inside docker) 30000, but my docker host has to listen on 30020 for example. |
| 14:42 |
sfan5 |
that sounds like the engine should rather handle port mapping in some way |
| 14:53 |
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| 15:08 |
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| 15:26 |
bgstack15 |
sfan5: Luanti game engine you mean? Help me understand. The game itself running inside docker might never know what the outside listening port is. Also, even just a port forwarding on a home router might be different than what the PC running the game might be using. |
| 15:28 |
sfan5 |
the simplest solution I can think of is if you were able to tell Luanti "please act as if you were listening on port 12345 towards the server list" |
| 15:31 |
bgstack15 |
So a different entry in the config file? That could work. I suppose I was exploiting the server_url in the same way, but on the serverlist side of things. |
| 15:33 |
sfan5 |
yea |
| 15:33 |
sfan5 |
something like "outside_port" |
| 15:34 |
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| 16:01 |
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| 16:16 |
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| 16:22 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> what kind of good |
| 16:50 |
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| 16:53 |
jonadab |
sfan5: anti-racism is not universally viewed as being the opposite of racism. A lot of people think it is a *form* of racism. |
| 16:53 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> jonadab pls |
| 16:54 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> https://tenor.com/view/wrong-way-entrance-car-gif-14278076 |
| 16:54 |
jonadab |
Although the wording "educate your friends on" doesn't really specify exactly which view you're supposed to promote, so whatever. |
| 16:54 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> while I appreciate you want to give your 2c and maybe inform some people, I still it's bad territory |
| 16:54 |
jonadab |
Fair enough. |
| 16:54 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> yes, if you mean the antiracism which is just racism that challenges normal racism with different racism |
| 16:55 |
jonadab |
I should probably, in general, get in the habit of reading all of the backscroll before replying to any of it. |
| 16:55 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> the internet would be a much cleaner place if people would read a bit of context |
| 17:01 |
jonadab |
The question of whether voxel-based games are still "children's games" in 2025, is another matter. |
| 17:02 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i think if they weren't roblox wouldn't be stonking or something |
| 17:02 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> well, they are also "children's games" to be precise; not exclusive to children of course |
| 17:03 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> it's Micro$oft's policy that MC is for kids, particularly their predatory marketplace and minecoin system and all the media and merch that funnels into it |
| 17:03 |
jonadab |
Hmm, I wasn't thinking of roblox. That one does feel way more juvenile. |
| 17:03 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> It's a race to the bottom |
| 17:04 |
jonadab |
Oh, Bedrock edition, I always forget that exists. |
| 17:04 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> At some point they just switched from rally cars to dragsters |
| 17:04 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> but voxel terrain is established for many games nowadays, a lot of them not aimed at kids |
| 17:05 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> like rising world |
| 17:06 |
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| 17:06 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Play vintage story and you will know pain |
| 17:06 |
jonadab |
I'm pretty sure the median viewer of Minecraft-related content on YouTube, for example, is middle-aged at this point. |
| 17:07 |
jonadab |
Oh, if I want pain, I'll just go back to trying to get gud at Angband. |
| 17:07 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I see you've never played vintage story and I will respect your current opinion |
| 17:12 |
jonadab |
This is honestly the first I've heard of it; and I am not one of those people who flits from game to game to game, so my threshhold for what makes a game worth my time to check out, tends to be a bit more elevated than "this one guy on IRC likes it". |
| 17:12 |
bgstack15 |
sfan5: I don't expect that I would be able to understand how to code a change to the engine to include a new config option, so I doubt I could contribute a PR. And frankly, even if the engine provided one, the way serverlist is written, it uses the incoming IP address from the request as a validator, so any engine-side changes would need to be in coordination with the serverlist to trust a new config field coming from the client (game se |
| 17:12 |
bgstack15 |
rver) anyways. |
| 17:15 |
jonadab |
I mean, it's reasonable to trust that the game server knows what port it listens on. |
| 17:17 |
jonadab |
At least as reasonable as assuming that the server doesn't have a mod that causes all connected clients to expend resources mining cryptocurrency for the server operator, for example. (Though that would likely degrade performance so much, that such a server would not have many users for very long.) |
| 17:18 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> not if you tune it down to a slow mining rate ;) |
| 17:21 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the possibility that a client could be made to "mine crypto" was often considered an antifeature; but given recent developments (aggressive llm crawlers bogging down small websites) proof of work has become a legitimate feature (anubis). |
| 17:21 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> it's the economy, stupid |
| 17:24 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Client has to turn off all mod protection, there's no sscsm so you'd have to manually install a csm, but first you have to enable csm. Then the csm would have to start an executable stored in it in a folder. But then you'd have to ship 3 operating system executables and detect which OS it is. If this miner has dynamic libraries it depends on that means you have a csm that's megabytes if not hundreds of megabytes. And if you want to |
| 17:24 |
MTDiscord |
support freebsd then have a good cry. Then on top of this the csm might want to shut down the background process of the miner. But if the game crashes or -9 on linux then it will just continue to run which is going to be extremely suspicious. And on top of that even if there was sscsm you'd still have to trick the people to download the executable. Or you're going to have to figure out a way to payload an executable as a png |
| 17:25 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Just an absolute disaster |
| 17:28 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> The more I think about this the more I'm starting to laugh thinking about how much effort someone would have to go through to run this payload lmao |
| 17:29 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> so what you're saying is, SSCSM is a bad idea :D |
| 17:29 |
zleap |
why would people want to, I am sure there are easier ways to mine crypto |
| 17:30 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> that costs hardware. Why not let other people's hardware do the work? |
| 17:30 |
zleap |
without their permission or consent |
| 17:30 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> well I didn't say it wasn't unethical |
| 17:30 |
zleap |
i know |
| 17:39 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> No. Even with SSCSM you still have to disable things to run this payload |
| 17:40 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> can you not mine it with pure Lua? |
| 17:40 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Lua would still be sandboxed so you'd have to go out of your way to turn off switches, if, they would even be allowed to be turned off |
| 17:41 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> I assume it could send data to the server about what it's hashed and the server send it hashing jobs through same modchannel. Would still get an awful hashrate though |
| 17:42 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I don't see a lua miner anywhere, but I haven't looked that hard |
| 17:43 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> It might be possible. But if mining with a raw C or C++ library on the CPU barely did anything a few years ago, I can't imagine how poorly that would perform today |
| 17:44 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> You'd have to be able to turn off SSCSM safety and then get a C library loaded in. So you'd have to write a miner from scratch or you'd have to have a header only miner and payload it through the luajit C library |
| 17:44 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> This just sounds like an awful plan lmao |
| 17:44 |
MTDiscord |
<et086> unsandboxed sscsm would be fire xD |
| 17:45 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> It would be, a dumpster fire |
| 17:45 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> "I ran 999 SSCSM viruses on my Luanti" video |
| 17:45 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> could you get it to mine a shitcoin like doge though? |
| 17:46 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Uhh, that's not header only at all. Oh man. That would be all this https://github.com/dogecoinfoundation/libdogecoin/tree/0.1.5-dev/src in a lua file |
| 17:47 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> oh lol I had no idea it was that byzantine |
| 17:47 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I will say the actual worst case for sscsm |
| 17:48 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> You are allowed to turn off sscsm sandboxing, so now it's like going on a website in the early 2000s, they can run anything they want. No AJAX protection, nothing. You can now do whatever you want through the server on a client's computer |
| 17:48 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Very shrimple solution, completely disable disabling that |
| 17:50 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Basically, do what is done now. Gut the luajit vm of anything that can escape |
| 17:50 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> "oh man no no I can run proprietary software licenses on my pc oh noooo" |
| 17:51 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Do what emacs does when you load up a shared library, enforce the mod to agree that it's an open source license |
| 17:52 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> hmm what's the free-est way to play Luanti? x86 or ARM? Then GNU/Linux-libre with no binary blobs on an FSF-approved distro |
| 17:52 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> whatever is the openest architecture with the most free UEFI/BIOS/firmware |
| 17:53 |
MTDiscord |
<redundantcc> Freest way it's just to compile it yourself |
| 17:53 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> RISC running alpine linux and compile from source |
| 17:54 |
MTDiscord |
<redundantcc> RISC still has a lot of proprietary bits though, if I remember there's a couple extensions that are really good but not technically open source |
| 17:54 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Which one? RISC-V or RISC64? |
| 17:54 |
MTDiscord |
<redundantcc> Also I wouldn't go Alpine, nixos gives you better reproducibility and stability and still allows you to compile from Source if you like |
| 17:55 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> make sure the display connection can't be used for content protection either |
| 17:55 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> vga |
| 17:55 |
MTDiscord |
<redundantcc> RISC-V last I heard, they made decent progress but things like GPU manufacturers can always close source parts of it and then release those bits, turns out if you pay an engineer they do better work... and those GPU you manufacturers did work |
| 17:55 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> do everything yourself |
| 17:55 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> I think you can do it with DVI-D |
| 17:56 |
zleap |
would https://openrisc.io/ be applicable here? |
| 17:56 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> from the machine to the software |
| 17:56 |
MTDiscord |
<redundantcc> Replies don't work over IRC |
| 17:56 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Well that was a trick question because they're the same. RISC-V has many implementations |
| 17:56 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> do it on a breadboard PC pfft |
| 17:56 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> they're on matrix? |
| 17:56 |
MTDiscord |
<redundantcc> Potato tomato same thing |
| 17:56 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> discord replies do not make it to IRC, and IRC messages are what get sent to matrix |
| 17:57 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> oof |
| 17:57 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oh dang |
| 17:57 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> well just chat like it's an IRC room |
| 17:57 |
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| 17:57 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> anyway, I said "do everything yourself, from the machine to the software" responding to "what's the freeest way to....." |
| 17:57 |
MTDiscord |
<redundantcc> Or they could just join IRC, but I'm a hypocrite so what do I know |
| 17:57 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> (that's a lot of es) |
| 17:58 |
zleap |
i seem to be on both irc and matrix |
| 17:58 |
zleap |
but only for a few channels, I am on a lot more channels on irc |
| 17:58 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Manually do boolean algebra in a notepad to run minetest |
| 17:59 |
MTDiscord |
<redundantcc> Technically the freest way, is to develop a proprietary solution patent and copyright it, and then extend that copyright freely to everyone, ensuring that everyone will always have access to it... (coughs in gpl) |
| 17:59 |
MTDiscord |
<redundantcc> Or so I've heard |
| 17:59 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> you have to make the notepad yourself to make sure it wasn't produced with any nonfree software at the paper mill / printworks |
| 18:00 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> if you're lucky there's some paperbark trees nearby |
| 18:00 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Precisely, make the saw from the iron you find in the ground so that no licenses restrict you from what you can do with the saw |
| 18:01 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> land: |
| 18:01 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> actually we're all doomed because our parents used nonfree software |
| 18:01 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Okay fine. Step 1: move to a deserted island |
| 18:01 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> every single time I think of re-enacting the development of civilization, I run into the same problem: all the land's owned |
| 18:02 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> there's always bir tawil |
| 18:02 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> move? by what means? |
| 18:02 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> You're going to have to take off your proprietary shoes and then swim there |
| 18:03 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> while breathing air (mildly) polluted with pollutants made with proprietary stuff |
| 18:03 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> there are proprietary microplastics in my body already |
| 18:04 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> You'll have to wear a face mask made of your own hair and go get a coconut and perform a blood filtration on yourself |
| 18:05 |
ireallyhateirc |
what is this drunk conversation |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Well, we were basically seeing how to unproprietary everything |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> The results are inconclusive |
| 18:07 |
ireallyhateirc |
proprietary software/hardware is especially insidious because computers are universal machines and can be programmed to do a wide array of bad stuff |
| 18:07 |
ireallyhateirc |
other things such as shoes are less likely to do so |
| 18:07 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> How can you be sure? Where is the source code? |
| 18:08 |
MTDiscord |
<the4spaceconstants2181> N/A |
| 18:09 |
ireallyhateirc |
sounds like trolling but I'll reply as if it wasn't trolling. Shoes won't spy on you and won't stop you from going to different places |
| 18:09 |
ireallyhateirc |
proprietary code will spy on you and will prevent you from doing stuff |
| 18:09 |
ireallyhateirc |
the worst thing that could happen with shoes would be if they were filled with poison or radioactive substances, which is dumb |
| 18:10 |
ireallyhateirc |
in practice manufacturers of physical goods such as shoes use planned obsolescence |
| 18:10 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> https://baliston.com/products/baliston%C2%AE-by-starck-smart-shoes-full-black |
| 18:10 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> There's AI in shoes now |
| 18:11 |
ireallyhateirc |
if you're dumb enough to buy shoes with AI then you get a dump prize |
| 18:12 |
ireallyhateirc |
dumb* |
| 18:18 |
zleap |
AI seems to be creaping in everywhere, more of a marketing con to get you to buy stuff |
| 18:18 |
zleap |
and I think there is debate as to how intelligent it is, |
| 18:18 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> I must be too cynical, because it puts me off the product instead of hyping me |
| 18:18 |
zleap |
same here |
| 18:19 |
zleap |
Machine learning may be different ans has good applications for say medical scans |
| 18:19 |
zleap |
looking for specific things in a scan to assist human doctors |
| 18:20 |
zleap |
*ans = and |
| 18:24 |
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| 18:31 |
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| 18:56 |
mrkubax10 |
Is it possible to remove node without callbacks getting called without using VoxelManip? |
| 18:59 |
Krock |
mrkubax10: use swap_node and remove its metadata manually using :from_table({}) |
| 19:00 |
mrkubax10 |
oh right, I wouldn't come up with that lol |
| 19:00 |
Krock |
:) |
| 19:00 |
sfan5 |
https://github.com/luanti-org/minetest_game/blob/838ad60ad085f7eabdfb60a8e531b14e424aa5d4/mods/beds/api.lua#L1-L7 for your convenience |
| 19:01 |
mrkubax10 |
thanks |
| 19:01 |
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| 19:39 |
bgstack15 |
Anybody here use mod "sickles"? It's pretty sick. |
| 19:40 |
MTDiscord |
<nathan4220776> It's pretty sickles. |
| 19:42 |
bgstack15 |
I had to adapt it for Mineclonia, and it makes my giant wheat field so much easier to manage. |
| 19:46 |
mrkubax10 |
finally managed to implement cable melting when "voltage" is too high in IndustrialTest |
| 19:46 |
Krock |
it's less sick, or should I say sickless |
| 19:47 |
Krock |
mrkubax10: melting cables should depend on current and not voltage |
| 19:47 |
mrkubax10 |
hence I put volage in quotes |
| 19:47 |
Krock |
unless it's voltage drop across the conductor |
| 19:48 |
Krock |
hmm so it's similar to technic? |
| 19:48 |
mrkubax10 |
kind of, yeah |
| 19:48 |
mrkubax10 |
closer to original IC2 |
| 19:48 |
Krock |
what is IC2? |
| 19:48 |
mrkubax10 |
IndustrialCraft 2 |
| 19:49 |
Krock |
ah. some sort of Minecraft mod |
| 19:49 |
mrkubax10 |
yeah |
| 19:49 |
mrkubax10 |
I would say that IC2 is where all of those Technic-like mods started |
| 19:52 |
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sfan5 |
https://0x0.st/8y4H.png a piece of sky fell down |
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